The time I was racist.

[Nepene]

I see journalists and politicians capitalizing on this as a rather minor concern. I don't see it as really villainous either. Murder is more important than talk.

[RyukaTana]

I see journalists and politicians capitalizing on this as a rather minor concern. I don't see it as really villainous either. Murder is more important than talk.

Really? Why is it then, that the man generally considered the most villainous figure in recent history is primarily considered a murderer because of his charisma, rather than any actual pulling of the trigger performed by his hand?

[Nepene]

I see journalists and politicians capitalizing on this as a rather minor concern. I don't see it as really villainous either. Murder is more important than talk.

Really? Why is it then, that the man generally considered the most villainous figure in recent history is primarily considered a murderer because of his charisma, rather than any actual pulling of the trigger performed by his hand?

Pedantic quibble, Hitler was a fairly hands off leader, his subordinates did most of the bad stuff.

Anyway, he's bad because he or his subordinates ordered racial cleansing, not because he gave charismatic speeches. If he chose to focus on speech giving I would have no issues with any of his actions mostly likely as I wouldn't know he existed.

[RyukaTana]

I see journalists and politicians capitalizing on this as a rather minor concern. I don't see it as really villainous either. Murder is more important than talk.

Really? Why is it then, that the man generally considered the most villainous figure in recent history is primarily considered a murderer because of his charisma, rather than any actual pulling of the trigger performed by his hand?

Pedantic quibble, Hitler was a fairly hands off leader, his subordinates did most of the bad stuff.

Anyway, he's bad because he or his subordinates ordered racial cleansing, not because he gave charismatic speeches. If he chose to focus on speech giving I would have no issues with any of his actions mostly likely as I wouldn't know he existed.

How exactly do you think he ordered racial cleansing? What do you think was the content of his speeches?

Hitler didn't take a Luger to a million Jews himself. He wasn't shoving a bunch of Jews into ovens with his bare hands. He spoke, other people listened. Soldiers and guns waged the war, but words started it.

[Nepene]

How exactly do you think he ordered racial cleansing? What do you think was the content of his speeches?

Hitler didn't take a Luger to a million Jews himself. He wasn't shoving a bunch of Jews into ovens with his bare hands. He spoke, other people listened. Soldiers and guns waged the war, but words started it.

When I said that I was more opposed to murder than talk I wasn't indicating that no form of verbal communication could be more evil than murder, I was in particular referring to two way conversations between people, not people being ordered to do some act with no allowed disobedience like shoot people.

He gained power via talking, but that doesn't mean that gaining political power is by nature evil. The biggest issue with Nazi Germany I believe based on my readings about the voting records was how the political parties ignored old people and in particular were extremely hostile to women. Even the feminist movements were pretty bad, continually criticizing women for trivial reasons. Hitler rose to power on a wave of previously non participating elderly individuals and women who's needs had been ignored or dismissed by politicians. The lesson I'd take from that is that everyone's voice should be heard, not just the majority.

[RyukaTana]

Right, Hitler got into power through manipulation and 'capitalizing' on the vulnerabilities of Germany after WWI (among other things). This is getting far off point, though.

In the end, the manipulation of the truth has a far reaching effect. It can be the difference between incidents like this happening once, and incidents like this happening over and over again. Not every politician or journalist is going to twist and manipulate the events, but enough will do so that it muddies the waters, and makes it that much more likely that history repeats itself.

On a social level, one man who pulls the trigger of a gun is a symptom. The fish rots from the head, as they say.

[JustinReilly]

...This petition's about the building.

Hitler rose to power on a wave of previously non participating elderly individuals and women who's needs had been ignored or dismissed by politicians.

The gangs of SA thugs loitering outside the polling places may have had something to do with it as well.

[Nepene]

Right, Hitler got into power through manipulation and 'capitalizing' on the vulnerabilities of Germany after WWI (among other things). This is getting far off point, though.

In the end, the manipulation of the truth has a far reaching effect. It can be the difference between incidents like this happening once, and incidents like this happening over and over again. Not every politician or journalist is going to twist and manipulate the events, but enough will do so that it muddies the waters, and makes it that much more likely that history repeats itself.

If you look at the voting records of the people who voted for the Nazi party it was mostly non politicals who wouldn't care that much about the vulnerability of Germany. The issue was more that a lot of people's needs were poorly met by German parties and a charismatic person could seize their vote. He then capitalized on that with the SA as Justin noted.

That's not really an issue for America, the two main political parties have it locked down pretty good and both are moderate enough that genocide is improbable.

AKA republicans and democrats can muddy the waters, but it's never going to lead to death camps.

[RyukaTana]

I really hate when people use that kind of defense. No, genocide is not likely the outcome here, is that the only form of suffering that exists? Do you not parse forms of human suffering that aren't at the extreme end of the spectrum?

I used that example because it's well-known, and easily accessible. I'm not suggesting we'll end up with a Holocaust, I'm discussing something more insidious. Subtle evils are often the worst kind. At least when things get really fucked up, people tend to take action.

[Nepene]

I really hate when people use that kind of defense. No, genocide is not likely the outcome here, is that the only form of suffering that exists? Do you not parse forms of human suffering that aren't at the extreme end of the spectrum?

I used that example because it's well-known, and easily accessible. I'm not suggesting we'll end up with a Holocaust, I'm discussing something more insidious. Subtle evils are often the worst kind. At least when things get really fucked up, people tend to take action.

This is why one variant of Godwin's law is that whoever mentions Hitler first in an internet discussion loses.

It's not a good comparison and it confuses the debate more than it helps.

It's a statement with shock value that loses that value if you're talking about something insidious.