#667: Now she's getting the picture...

[Arcblade]

Maybe this is the first time Max has had this kind of discussion? I tend to get super-careful around discussions and getting consent precisely because this kind of misunderstanding can happen. Or maybe Max just isn't as cautious a person as I am. Or both. Either way, it's flail-o-clock, I guess. All rape is bad, but I'm glad it wasn't a case of this guy's story (link goes to Cracked, which is not polite about making its usually good points. Fair warning).

[Nepene]

I'm still not sure if she's got the picture.

H: I... I thought we were talking about, like, an overall consensual encounter that happened to feature a specific element that you didn't like and didn't want to happen again. I didn't know we'd be busting out the felony terminology.
TH: Well, I'm not pressing charges or anything, but... yeah. That's how I'm considering it.
MH (hugging TH): Fuck, no, Trent, fuck, I love you, I'm sorry, you should have said something!

She seems to be telling him he can't consider it a felony offense, isn't apologizing for anything specific, and blames him for not telling her. It's not the weakest apology I've ever seen but it's pretty high on the list of weak ones.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... -apologies

"A true apology keeps the focus on your actions—and not on the other person’s response."

"A true apology does not overdo."

"A true apology needs to be backed by corrective action."

She failed at all three of these. The focus was on her emotional state not his feelings, she focused on his 'wrong' behavior of not telling her, she didn't indicate any desire to not repeat the behavior. These were active failures,not passive failures of poor language- she'd have been better of just saying nothing but sorry because with each word she is observably pissing off Trent more.

[DestinyDK]

Honestly I'm just glad to see max on 'the right track' hopefully her apology will be more complete on Friday. As for right now I'm just glad to see some remorse.

[Chimerasame]

...She failed at all three of these...

You know, I'm not sayin' she's a saint, but one thing to consider is that you're spending a LOT more time thinking and reflecting on her words, than is actually passing for *her* right now. She's super emotional and does not have the luxury of many minutes/hours of reflection. She's just sayin' what comes into her mind; it's not gonna be perfect.

Also, the conversation isn't over, she hasn't acted like it's "resolved" and thus quit her corrective actions. I don't think it's fair to say she's "failed" yet.

[Nepene]

She's saying what's coming into her mind, and none of that's "Oh you said you were raped? That's sad and I think it shouldn't happen." which is something I can blame her for.

Plus, even when I first read it I knew in my gut it was a bad answer. I know when you do bad stuff deflecting it onto the victim is cruel.

[Caliban]

Honestly I'm just glad to see max on 'the right track' hopefully her apology will be more complete on Friday. As for right now I'm just glad to see some remorse.

Given how quickly she turned suicidal in the elevator, I'm not going to be surprised if she goes that route again. She doesn't see herself as someone who would hurt the people she loves and now she's been informed she's helped rape one of them. Not saying it's definitely going to happen, but I see it as a strong possibility.

[crayzz]

You know, I'm not sayin' she's a saint, but one thing to consider is that you're spending a LOT more time thinking and reflecting on her words, than is actually passing for *her* right now.

Indeed.

In any case, I'm more concerned about sincerity than anything else.

A lot of readers have been upset with Max during this storyline, alleging that she advocates sexual assault, that she doesn't respect her partners' orientations, that she doesn't take consent seriously, et cetera. The thing about Max, though, is that I have always written her without any sort of moderation. She's always at either zero or eleven.

I'm ...

OK, it's nice to know that, when things are spelled out for her, Max picks the right direction, even if she over reacts.

That being said, Max's disrespect for consent is still evident. She heard, "You knew that I would not have approved or consented," and interpreted "...an overall consensual encounter that happened to feature a specific element that you didn't like and didn't want to happen again." She needed to have it spelled out for her.*

I can accept that Max has good intentions, and that she tries to take consent seriously. I do not believe that she has a good mindset for effectively acting as though she does. "Ignorant, stupid, or malicious" is a reductive model for why people are wrong, but its frequently useful: Max isn't stupid, and malicious is incredibly unlikely, but she has some learning to do.

*Not coincidentally, this is one reason I object to the "X is non-central** to category Y so calling it Y is wrong" argument. Besides simply being wrong on its face, the inherent contradiction leads to nonsensical statements like Max's. With rape specifically, there's only two criteria to be in the set: sex happens, and it happens without consent. Refusing to call something rape requires denying one of the two criteria, and denying that sex happened usually isn't what happens.

**I probably also object to what commonly considered central to the category.

[Cygnus]

My concern (assuming Max isn't intentionally being two-faced about all this) is that Max still might not be getting it, and is currently just responding to the words 'rape victim'. With those two words, Trent has gone from someone complaining about sex (something she sees as inherently a good thing) to a victim (like many of the animals that pass through her workplace). Before she treated him as being picky and insecure. Now she wants to comfort him and cuddle him and assure him that he is loved.

Regardless, hopefully now Max will properly listen to Trent, and learn to respect the limits of his consent (and that of others!), regardless of whether she likes those limits herself. And maybe take some personal responsibility, because she has been quite disrespectful to Trent during this talk.

[whitewolf87]

I myself am a male rape victim, I specifically joined the forums to talk with *this* arc, specifically at the encouragment of my husband (also a member of these forums). I posted once, and I have avoided posting more because everything that I could possibly say would be pointless hate directed at Max and Tailsteak. Max *may* deserve such vitriol, but I know Tailsteak doesn't (he himself didn't hand anybody's penis to Simon), add to that the fact that hate is an emotion almost completely lacking in utility in any non-war scenario, and I avoided posting. At this point, having read tidbits of what other people have said here and there, both nodding in agreement and hissing in disgust depending on the posts themselves, I have decided to go ahead and give what I feel will be my final input. Yes, it's vaguely seflish of me, but hopefully not self-indulgent. This comic has been very important to my husband and I, and the way this entire storyline has been handled has pushed me to the point of almost completely writing Leftover Soup out of life. I'm still not entirely sure whether I'll continue reading. I've decided *on that count* to give it until Monday of next week.

As we come to...whatever we're coming to with this, I have become more and more and more disdainful of Max with every word. I have actually found myself looking back at past things she's said. Things which I considered silly or funny, and in light of everything presented here, they're flat-out wrong. She was honestly one of my favorite characters up to this storyline. There are still things about her that I love...but I will never be able to look at her the same way after this. There is nothing that she could possibly say to me if I were in Trent's position that would prompt anything resembling forgiveness out of me. The whole "Trent wants to have his cake and eat it too" thing that Tailsteak pointed out is-to me-just victim-blaming. Trent is allowed to feel various ways about what has happened to him. My personal experience with this issue was even more "straightforwardly" rape. It involved force and coercion. I *still* tried to downplay it and rationalize it away for years after the event, and even to this day I still occasionally try to just not deal with it. It's a perfectly legitimate reaction to a situation in which you feel threatened and you feel your pride being pounded out of you. Self-blame, just for the record, is also quite common. Ask my husband, he's dealt with the five-year fallout of me being a rape-ee for about a year and a half now, if you don't count the time he knew about it when I still lived stateside and tried to talk to me about it then.

At this point, I feel Max is trying to avoid her least favorite thing, i.e. dealing with other people's feelings. I know she's suffering. I know she has serious mental/emotional problems. I don't care. There is no amount of medication she could take; no amount of breakdowns that she can suffer that make that whole thing with her and Jamie in the elevator useful in the sense of "softening the blow" or justifying her actions. I just do not care about her problems right now. I don't think she actually is sorry for Trent. I think she might be sorry for herself. Maybe. Consent is CLEARLY not something that Max understands or appreciates. I don't think she is capable of true empathy, though I think she is extremely charming. I feel that the circumstances of the foundation of the polyamourous relationship that she has (for all intents and purposes) started, and that she pretty much is the cornerstone of...suck. That's not to say that I neccesarily disapprove of polyamory (though I'll also admit that I'm a a monogamuggle, personaly), but if that kind of thing is going to work, it has to have a good foundation. "Dudes and dudettes cheated on each other with this girl, we decided to form a new relationship out of it" is a CRAPPY foundation. I was skeptical of it when it started, and now it seems to me that Max honestly considers all these people her little playthings, both physically and emotionally.

Simon does not get a pass in my book, but I could potentially rebuild my trust with Simon on this issue. I don't blame her as much as I do Max. Plus, Simon came forth, and it was something that seemed to have been bothering him for some time before he confessed to Trent. Max has been sitting there acting like it wasn't a big deal...until the word "rape" came around like a grenade being lobbed in her toybox. Then she jumps on Trent, and all I can hear is "PLEASE DISARM IT...PLLLEEEASSEEE!!! I DON'T WANT TO LOSE MY LITTLE HEDONISTIC REALITY...eerrr...I mean...I love you...I'm so ss..sorry....you feel this way!"

Give me a break...

[Nepene]

As we come to...whatever we're coming to with this, I have become more and more and more disdainful of Max with every word. I have actually found myself looking back at past things she's said. Things which I considered silly or funny, and in light of everything presented here, they're flat-out wrong. She was honestly one of my favorite characters up to this storyline. There are still things about her that I love...but I will never be able to look at her the same way after this. There is nothing that she could possibly say to me if I were in Trent's position that would prompt anything resembling forgiveness out of me.

Although I'd also be against forgiveness it sounds like Trent wants to forgive her. He wants to work through issues and to be able to trust her with his anatomy. She could probably easily resolve this by saying something like...

"I'm deeply sorry for my actions. They were wrong, and I am deeply ashamed that I helped rape you. If you're willing to accept me back I would in future respect your consent a lot more and actively try to ensure acts I 'helped' you with were consensual, I recognize how much I messed up. I'm really really sorry. You deserve better than what I did."

She could easily do this. But is she willing to accept that possibly it's immoral raping people? I don't know. I get why you want to leave the comic, her behavior is pretty messed up and her attempts to fix things have just made her seem worse.

Then she jumps on Trent, and all I can hear is "PLEASE DISARM IT...PLLLEEEASSEEE!!! I DON'T WANT TO LOSE MY LITTLE HEDONISTIC REALITY...eerrr...I mean...I love you...I'm so ss..sorry....you feel this way!"

Give me a break...

Heh, nice translation of her words. Fits her mindset.