988: In which Lily is not serviced

[mustang6172]

I think the whole bathroom argument overlooks a bigger, yet less visible minority. Bladder shy persons outnumber transfolk 7:1, but where's ou-their special bathroom?

[gaeila]

I think the whole bathroom argument overlooks a bigger, yet less visible minority. Bladder shy persons outnumber transfolk 7:1, but where's ou-their special bathroom?

I would think that any bathroom that has stalls with doors that can latch would do the job. As I understand it, even men's bathrooms provide a few of those. Obviously, the one-at-a-time style lockable bathroom would provide extra security and relaxation to the shy.

[Vincent]

I'm a degenerate who just uses the bathroom for discharging bodily waste so I'll stick with unisex bathrooms, which are common where I live and work quite well.

Also, please keep made-up scenarios of rapists-posing-as-transgender out of this. You're trying to use an argument with no basing in reality and that reflects badly on the person using it. I imagine one reason for resorting to it is wanting to "win" an argument rather than getting to the facts of the matter, which seems a bad practice in general. We've all done that, but it's not helpful.

[harlequingnoll]

from the way she says it, it sounds like lily hasn't been fitted ever and might actually have an ill-fitting bra.

[masterofbones]

And in this page we see Lily continue to be a waste of perfectly good carbon.

[Chimerasame]

blaaaaaaaaaaaah

Eesh. Some parallels to some rhetoric that the world saw in the past, there.

Well, Tem and I do agree on one thing -- it's not really about the bathrooms.

It's about making trans people uncomfortable in public spaces. It's about keeping public spaces "normalized" so that marginalized groups feel less inclined to be there, and "regular" people don't have to look at them. Just like it was some decades ago.

[Cannonshop]

blaaaaaaaaaaaah

Eesh. Some parallels to some rhetoric that the world saw in the past, there.

Well, Tem and I do agree on one thing -- it's not really about the bathrooms.

It's about making trans people uncomfortable in public spaces. It's about keeping public spaces "normalized" so that marginalized groups feel less inclined to be there, and "regular" people don't have to look at them. Just like it was some decades ago.

I think you're also reading too deeply into it. It's not about bathrooms, or transgender, it's about change.

The majority of people don't like it. When the 'new' becomes normal, then they'll oppose changing it again.

Good example: outside of some reducing pressure-groups, nobody thinks that Abortion is going to be rolled back. Not the people who sya they're for it, not the people who say they're against it. The debate itself has become a sort of "well of course we're going to debate this..." thing.

same here. Provided the general population is allowed to digest the reality that we can treat Gender Dysphoria with surgery (one of the few mental illnesses we CAN treat, successfully, by converting a non-brain part of the body and giving out some hormone pills), rather than having it mixed in with some folks' desperate pleas for attention (hint: people, there are two genders. Not six, not ten. two. To be Trans is to be in Transition between the two. being a sissy is not a gender, it's a fetish, there IS A DIFFERENCE. Crossdressing is a fetish, pegging is a fetish, these are not demographics, you're not a special snowflake because of how or with what you get off. People whom are Trans, as in for real, have a real problem, one that can be solved, it's not the same thing at all as someone who just puts on the other gender's clothes to get their rocks off.)

and that confusion, right there, is the problem-because fact: there are a hell of a lot of people who see it as a kinky fetish instead of a genuine medical issue-but that number? it's getting smaller.

Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner probably did more to help normalize it than all the fashionistas and sociology majors on Tumblr could ever hope to-not because of being famous (though that is part of it), but because she transitioned in public, and didn't immediately line up at the SJW Koolaid stand. Jenner proved to people who don't know anyone who's Trans and likely never met one, that Trans people aren't just kinky fetishists or whinging self-righteous knobs looking for validation or pushing an 'issue' to get their 15 minutes of fame.

one thing to think about:
The civil rights movement owes a lot to two things that barely if ever get acknowledged by SJWs.

1. Truman integrated the Armed Forces in 1948. this meant whites would have to serve side-by-side with blacks for the first time since 1865.
2. The Korean War.

why the Korean War? Whites had to serve side-by-side with blacks in combat. further, they were all drafted, so everyone, from the rich white kid to the black kid from the ghetto, had to serve in the same units under fire, had to eat the same, had to watch each other's backs the same. Made Jim Crow look pretty silly once they got back. this probably did more than most profs would like to admit toward giving weight to equality at home.

the same thing applies here-'normalizing' means normalizing. everyone in the same boat, row or sink.

how does this apply to bathrooms?

North Caronlina's legislature must be doing one shit-hot job if they can spend time worrying more about the sign on a bathroom door, than balancing the state's budget or guaranteeing that the kids graduating from schools can even READ the sign on the bathroom door. Their roadways must be utterly perfect, and their crime rates must be microscopic and minor, to have the slack to consider something that goddamned petty.

Oh, wait, those things aren't.

the real 'traction' on these, is that they're good distractors to keep us from looking too closely at what our elected parasites in this country are doing to the rest of us, with money they take from all of us. Create a scandal create a diversion, get people riled up over something that doesn't matter, keep the masses enraged and engorged over non-issues that will likely sort themselves out in the culture as people gain knowledge and make up their own minds.

[Phantom]

Just a few nitpicky points here and there.

I think you're also reading too deeply into it. It's not about bathrooms, or transgender, it's about change.

The majority of people don't like it. When the 'new' becomes normal, then they'll oppose changing it again.

And I'd say this is too shallow. It's not entirely wrong, and it's optimistic, but the reality is that the bathroom bill is the proposed change here. What meaningful change it would accomplish in and of itself is fortunately more or less null, but it is specific legal license to harass trans people based on an absurd bathroom law. I don't think this negates your overall point, I just bring it up because supporters of the bill constantly make the claim that it's somehow the opposition who are trying to "change how bathrooms work," as many have put it.

Good example: outside of some reducing pressure-groups, nobody thinks that Abortion is going to be rolled back. Not the people who sya they're for it, not the people who say they're against it. The debate itself has become a sort of "well of course we're going to debate this..." thing.

This issue isn't as settled and resolved as you seem to be suggesting. Abortion and birth control aren't always readily available, and a plenty of legislation is still passed to leave the relevant healthcare providers more and more expensive, difficult to reach, and underfunded. It's true, few people feel there's any risk of abortion becoming illegal in the foreseeable future, but availability, accessibility, legal limitations, and, obviously, social and moral attitudes surrounding it are still a changing battleground. (That last part is important, and treating any issue that resonates so deeply with both its supporters and its attackers as something you can boil down to the legal question can come across as sidestepping rather than addressing the issue.)

Provided the general population is allowed to digest the reality that we can treat Gender Dysphoria with surgery (one of the few mental illnesses we CAN treat, successfully, by converting a non-brain part of the body and giving out some hormone pills), rather than having it mixed in with some folks' desperate pleas for attention (hint: people, there are two genders. Not six, not ten. two. To be Trans is to be in Transition between the two. being a sissy is not a gender, it's a fetish, there IS A DIFFERENCE. Crossdressing is a fetish, pegging is a fetish, these are not demographics, you're not a special snowflake because of how or with what you get off. People whom are Trans, as in for real, have a real problem, one that can be solved, it's not the same thing at all as someone who just puts on the other gender's clothes to get their rocks off.)

and that confusion, right there, is the problem-because fact: there are a hell of a lot of people who see it as a kinky fetish instead of a genuine medical issue-but that number? it's getting smaller.

I'll point out very briefly, because it deserves a much more in-depth discussion than I'm prepared to engage in right now, that not everyone who's trans experiences a physical dysphoria, and not everyone who does experience any particular expression of dysphoria seeks or desires hormones or surgery.

I will ask who you're ascribing this "confusion" to- the only people I've known who suggest "transvestite" is a gender are people who are entirely unfamiliar with the idea of gender identity as something distinct from physical sex except through crass jokes about crossdressers or trans people. Often this overlaps with the group who are unaccountably hostile toward it. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest "pegging" as reflective of a gender identity- to be blunt, that sounds more like what I might hear in the random collection of words thrown together by someone who is simultaneously frighteningly, unaccountably hostile toward nonconforming gender identities, and entirely lacking in any idea what those are.

To announce "There are only two genders" as if it were a meaningful statement, much less a relevant one, is to very efficiently condense "What are we talking about? I heard a word or two from down the hall," with "I have an opinion. This entire conversation is null," into a single mantra. Gender and sex have never been synonyms. The reactionary nonsense of pretending they are is a way to pre-emptively deny the significance of new information before you have heard it. It is not "bold," it is not "common sense." It is annoying to anyone who cares about the subject matter on any deeper level, exhausting to those of us who have to repeatedly explain why it is a non-sequitur, and frankly, a little childish.

(Retroactively ascribing new meanings to buzzwords and pretending that shakes the foundation of the discussion is a particular pet peeve for me that I've been seeing a lot of lately, so I apologize if this seems unnecessarily harsh.)

To be a little clearer: Responding "there are only two genders" in argument against trans or genderfluid people is a non-sequitur because none of those groups are gender non-conforming in a way that relates to that statement. Directing it toward intersex people is a non-sequitur because they are not necessarily gender non-conforming in any way. Directing it toward fetishists is a non-sequitur of the kind that suggests you don't actually know what anyone is talking about. Directing it toward nonbinary (including agender) folk comes with the implicit addition "and everyone is one or the other," which is a bit like walking up to a fig tree, observing that it grows figs, and telling it disapprovingly that all trees are either apple trees or orange trees, and that figs are a silly new-age idea. They are not unicorns or cryptozoological finds, and the only reason it occurs to you that they might or might not exist is because one is standing in front of you, and because you feel very strongly that what you are and are not comfortable with is more important than objective reality.

the real 'traction' on these, is that they're good distractors to keep us from looking too closely at what our elected parasites in this country are doing to the rest of us, with money they take from all of us. Create a scandal create a diversion, get people riled up over something that doesn't matter, keep the masses enraged and engorged over non-issues that will likely sort themselves out in the culture as people gain knowledge and make up their own minds.

"There are more objectively important things to worry about, so law and society should not take interest in this question" is in my experience, only sometimes, not consistently, compelling to people who are presently listening to mortars going off in their vicinity. I would not expect it to be compelling in less immediately dire circumstances.

I might actually find it comforting to think the exhausting, confounding mess that is almost synonymous with political discourse might be a very carefully planned act of manipulation on the part of politicians collectively, but I do think that gives them far more credit than they deserve.

[Tem]

I have just learned that the doors of US toilet cubicles are open not only just at the top and bottom, where a male could easily shove his smartphone in to film, no, they are see-through at the sides.

http://www.thegetrealmom.com/blog/womensrestroom


My contempt for each and any male who wishes for males (yes, transwomen are males, but males who never claimed to be transwomen are also given access, and you know this) to have access to the women's toilets has increased to a point that I would call a zenith, but sadly, I fear you can get worse, so not holding my breath.

If Lily is how much you hate yourself, then I can only say: Good, because you deserve to be hated that much. And possibly more.

Your fight for all males' right to stare at women while those women are peeing, means you also feel yourself entitled to access to the women's loos. Because now one would now dare tell you to leave.

I would not want to be alone with you. I would probably not just refuse to be alone in a room with you, like Lily does with Jamie, I would leave.

The man who openly admits that he wants to facilitate other men raping women, cannot be trusted to not be a rapist himself.



If any of you truly just wanted transpeople to feel safe, you would campaign for separate facilities for them. You would NOT EVER demand that they be given access to women's spaces.

(I have not read the thread. It is bad for my blood pressure. I also trust that no meaningful amount of posters have spoken out for the safety of women and demanded that transpeople be given facilities separate from males)

*Just... can we all stop pretending that the trans-bathroom debate is about anything other than making a big public statement about how you believe gender works?*

Well, the side on which YOU apparently are started it.

I do not believe in gender. I want toilets to be sex-segregated, and all males, even those in dresses and high heels, are welcome to use the toilets, changing rooms, showers and prison for the male-sexed people. I very much approve of this being normalized.
As a feminist, I belong to the group of women who helped normalized short hair and trouser-wearing for women. You men can do your own damn work, if males who wear dresses feel uncomfortable in your toilets, then that is because you make it so, or stand by and do nothing while others do it.

Gender non-conforming women feel safe and happy in the women's restrooms

If gender non-conforming males, including those who identify as trans, do not feel safe and welcome in the men's rooms, then that is your own damn problem and for you to fix. It is definitely not women's problem - or wasn't, until you decided to make it our problem by telling the feminine males to go to the women's restroom because they make you uncomfortable.


And yes, there are very many women who do not want to have a male anywhere near their naked breasts, and that includes mammograms. But I guess you'd rather we do not get medical care. After all, we are just women, and our very lives matter less than the precious feelz of males who want to be trusted to not be rapists or voyeurs just because they exist, without any proof whatsoever.

[Killjoy]

Tem is Lily.


Two injustices don't make justice.
You can't fight injustice with injustice.
You can't fight bigotry with bigotry.

And you can't fight ignorant anti-female prejudice with ignorant anti-male prejudice.