Rape flowchart.

[crayzz]

I bring this up because of a feminist friend I have who once, with a straight face, told me that if someone "Threatens to break up with you unless you have sex" is a rapist.

I have no problem with that statement. Emotional coercion is still coercion.

[MysticWav]

Wow. That is way out there crazy, crayzz.

Coercion is when you have no reasonable choice but to comply. Losing out on a relationship is not exactly an unreasonable alternative. It's not like a relationship is something we're all entitled to.

[crayzz]

Coercion is when you have no reasonable choice but to comply.

Indeed. Emotional coercion frequently exploits panic responses and human blind spots, leaving the victim unable to find a way out but to comply. It's like saying physical coercion didn't really happen, since in hindsight the victim had a way to fight back that they didn't think of at the time.

[Nepene]

I think it would depend a lot on the circumstances.

People should be free to say no to relationships and to explain that they are breaking up because of a lack of sex and also if your sex session ever involves a woman who is dry as a bone and is crying and hates the sex then clearly something has gone terribly wrong.

It would depend a lot on how you did it. If she, say, agreed to try to exercise more, sleep better, and engage in more foreplay that's a lot difference to if she agrees to grin and bear it. Are you trying to convince her to have sex with you, whether it's rapey or not, or are you trying to have more mutually enjoyable sex?

[crayzz]

The initial formulation said "threatens." Otherwise, yeah, contextually and circumstantially dependent.

[RyukaTana]

Wow. That is way out there crazy, crayzz.

Coercion is when you have no reasonable choice but to comply. Losing out on a relationship is not exactly an unreasonable alternative. It's not like a relationship is something we're all entitled to.

Yeah, I'm on board with this most definitely. Why the FUCK would you want to stay with a person who wants to have sex with you even if it's unpleasant for you? If you make that choice, and it's not because something very important hinges on that relationship (for instance, that person is the only reason you're not living on the streets or something), then I have no sympathy. Your stupid decision doesn't constitute someone else's criminal behavior.

Also, if someone breaking up with you is equivalent to you ending up on the streets, I'd consider that a completely different sort of threat anyway.

So, yes, I guess if you coerce someone into non-consensual sex, it's rape, but ultimately, that is actually the victim's problem in that case. I'd consider the guy an asshole, but not on a criminal level. Unless another threat looms, me saying: 'I want more sex, or I'm taking my business elsewhere' is a completely reasonable thing to do. I'm not entitled to sex, but I am entitled to decide whether sex is something I want/need from a relationship.

[Nepene]

There's no easy way to avoid the fact that it's not nice to break up with someone. They could see it as a threat no matter how you stated it.

You shouldn't be shouting or threatening someone with violence or purposeful negative consequences for sex, though unintended ones are fine.

You shouldn't have sex with someone unless they want to do it.

[crayzz]

Your stupid decision doesn't constitute someone else's criminal behavior.

The question is about "someone else's" behaviour; the decision is irrelevant, except to whether or not the crime was committed or merely attempted.

You are aware that trying and failing to coerce someone is still a crime, right?

You shouldn't be shouting or threatening someone with violence or purposeful negative consequences for sex, though unintended ones are fine.

I don't hold blanket exemptions for accidental harm.

EDIT: Pesky words inserting themselves randomly

[RyukaTana]

Talking to you is like talking to a chatbot, only far less fun, and basically just as productive.

[vvn]

Well, except that in the flowchart there it is possible to have non-consensual sex and it still not being rape.

I disagree with that legally.

This is a difficult question to me. The flowchart path that allows non-consentual sex, without it being rape: There has been no agreement to have sex, Other Person presumably does want to have sex, you do not, Other Person does not know you do not want to have sex. I have to agree with the flowchart here. In the scenarios I can think of that could follow this path I can't find ways to blame Other Person. Can anyone else?

Let me give an example in a less emotionally charged area: Other Person is driving along and sees you walking on the side of the road. Pulls over, and offers you a lift. You do not say you would like a ride, and do not want a ride, however you hop in the car. Have you just been kidnapped? No.

I might change the wording slightly to "Did the other person think you wanted to have sex?"