Harassment is sad.

[yomikoma]

Also, you don't even have to care what she thinks about it. That shit makes all men look bad and you can tell him to knock it off because it's reflecting badly on you.

[Deepbluediver]

I don't think deliberately seeking such attention out is comparable to being harassed when you're minding your own business. One might as well use the same argument to justify punching strangers in the face. Hey, someone likes a good bar fight now and again. Just not that guy on the ground bleeding.

It really is a dumb argument. Just because some people enjoy it, doesn't mean everyone will, and it certainly doesn't justify going on indiscriminately.

I'm using it to justify my hesitance to jump into any situation before it's obvious that my help isn't wanted. She's a big girl- if she doesn't want the asshole hitting on her then let her tell him off herself.

Also, you don't even have to care what she thinks about it. That shit makes all men look bad and you can tell him to knock it off because it's reflecting badly on you.

If the woman has already left, then to whom does it reflect well upon if I tell him off? The idiot who think's he's complimenting a girl? I'm potentially picking a fight over something that the only people who care about it are me and the guy I'm fighting with.
And if not standing up for someone else makes all men seem like assholes, then doesn't a woman not standing up for herself make it seem like all women enjoy it?

Again, my personal thing is that I'm not going to come to someone's rescue unless they are in appear to be frightened, are in danger, or have stood up for themselves first. Failing any of that, what's wrong with the assumption that they don't care, enjoy it, or can handle themselves?

[crayzz]

She's a big girl- if she doesn't want the asshole hitting on her then let her tell him off herself.

I find that mindset utterly abhorrent. The idea that we shouldn't tell off assholes because their targets aren't helpless is nothing more than tacitly accepting and condoning people being assholes. When someone mistreats others, it's good to push against that. I consider that so obvious it's almost axiomatic. All we accomplish by ignoring assholes is sending a strong message saying, "Hey assholes, if you want to treat people like shit, they're totally on their own! They'll have to choose between putting up with your shit or wasting time and energy standing up for themselves!"

Yeah, I'm not gonna go along with that.

[Deepbluediver]

She's a big girl- if she doesn't want the asshole hitting on her then let her tell him off herself.

I find that mindset utterly abhorrent. The idea that we shouldn't tell off assholes because their targets aren't helpless is nothing more than tacitly accepting and condoning people being assholes. When someone mistreats others, it's good to push against that. I consider that so obvious it's almost axiomatic. All we accomplish by ignoring assholes is sending a strong message saying, "Hey assholes, if you want to treat people like shit, they're totally on their own! They'll have to choose between putting up with your shit or wasting time and energy standing up for themselves!"

So if someone has to stand up for themselves it's "wasting time and energy" but if I stand up for someone else its...what?

I'm willing to intervene if there is a NEED for me to do so- I described on the very first page a scenario in which I did that. I just think that I have tougher criteria than you for determining what's a bad situation that requires my intervention.

[crayzz]

So if someone has to stand up for themselves it's "wasting time and energy" but if I stand up for someone else its...what?

Sending the message that mistreating other's isn't acceptable. Yes, it costs time and energy, but it has the added effect of social support for people mistreated: the sort of thing we need if we want a culture where mistreating people isn't widely considered acceptable.

I just think that I have tougher criteria than you for determining what's a bad situation that requires my intervention.

No, I just recognize that only doing what's "required" is a good way to enable a culture where mistreating others is acceptable, so long as it isn't violent.

[Nepene]

She's a big girl- if she doesn't want the asshole hitting on her then let her tell him off herself.

I find that mindset utterly abhorrent. The idea that we shouldn't tell off assholes because their targets aren't helpless is nothing more than tacitly accepting and condoning people being assholes. When someone mistreats others, it's good to push against that. I consider that so obvious it's almost axiomatic. All we accomplish by ignoring assholes is sending a strong message saying, "Hey assholes, if you want to treat people like shit, they're totally on their own! They'll have to choose between putting up with your shit or wasting time and energy standing up for themselves!"

So if someone has to stand up for themselves it's "wasting time and energy" but if I stand up for someone else its...what?

I'm willing to intervene if there is a NEED for me to do so- I described on the very first page a scenario in which I did that. I just think that I have tougher criteria than you for determining what's a bad situation that requires my intervention.

When a person disagrees with being harassed- say a person is walking down the street and someone calls out "You're pretty fine, why don't you suck my cock." or whatever and the harassed person responds the response is often something like "Ugh, why do you have to be such a bitch, I'm just trying to give you a compliment." because they view it as socially acceptable to sexually harass people.

If more people join in to condemn it then it stops being socially acceptable and so it's less of a waste of time and energy.

[RyukaTana]

When a person disagrees with being harassed- say a person is walking down the street and someone calls out "You're pretty fine, why don't you suck my cock." or whatever and the harassed person responds the response is often something like "Ugh, why do you have to be such a bitch, I'm just trying to give you a compliment." because they view it as socially acceptable to sexually harass people.

If more people join in to condemn it then it stops being socially acceptable and so it's less of a waste of time and energy.

"Why don't you suck my cock?" is way more blatant than most of the comments made in the video, and that is not irrelevant to the discussion. Not to mention, blue has already declared his willingness to add his voice to the dissent if the person defends themselves. Not to mention, the response to the response escalates the insult further, making this three counts removed from a scenario in which someone says something like: 'Good morning, beautiful' or 'Damn!'.

Absolutely, if someone is going to solicit oral sex from a stranger, I'll happily jump in and tell them to back the fuck off*. However, I'm not defending someone from the dreaded innocuous salutation from a stranger. Nor am I jumping in at someone who says 'Damn!' or 'Nice ass!', as long as they don't pursue it further than that. That it makes some people uncomfortable does not make it anyone else's fucking problem. I know people who are uncomfortable with strangers looking in their direction, I'm not going to talk shit to every pedestrian with eyes.



* = If I'm in the mood for it (and the catcaller seems like a pretty stereotypical guy), I'll intercept the solicitation and see if I can make them uncomfortable, gay chicken with strangers can be a fun game.

[Nepene]

In the video we have...

Smile.

Smile!

You should say thank you more.

Stalks her for a couple minutes.

Why won't you talk? Is it because I'm ugly?

When you get to the point of someone following another person or ordering them to behave better it gets awkward.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lea-grove ... 68500.html

This covers someone's experiences of a more invasive harassment.

Let's talk for a minute about the men who don't stop at standing centimeters away, whispering into your ear. Let's talk about the men who grab, grope or lick women who wander into their paths in a public space.

But even more, let's talk about the other side of this kind of street harassment. The side of harassment experienced by older women, heavier women, women who don't conform to our society's ideals of beauty. Let's talk about being leered at by men who follow up being ignored, not with a, "You should be more grateful," but with a, "Stupid b*tch!"

Let's talk about the men who shout, "I want to taste your juices," or "I'll give you twenty dollars to suck my dick."

I've heard of that sort of thing from female friends and experienced it in clubs, university grounds and such.

Not to mention, blue has already declared his willingness to add his voice to the dissent if the person defends themselves.

Most of the time that results in being called a bitch or being told to lighten up or being attacked, not being aided. I can't really endorse defending yourself to these sorts of people. They don't respect boundaries, too often it results in bad events happening. I'm not saying you have to help, I'm just noting the effectiveness of various responses. It doesn't have to be your fucking problem but it'd be nice for those victimized if it was. Do you have some issue with people making it their problem?

This is the sort of thing I was talking about with altruism earlier. People have limited fucks to give and limited time and energy and so of course don't help out everyone they meet. That's fine. But it's obviously fairly annoying if a hundred people do something pretty awkward to someone every day. It'd be nice for someone to deal with it. It being mentally exhausting doesn't make it less of a good cause.

It's good you help out some though anyway.

[RyukaTana]

Yes, the video did have a few instances of harassment, I said as much. However, none of the guys in the video (which is the thing that started this topic, and is the barometer that I am using, as well as blue from what I can tell), touch her, and only one really seems to take anything beyond calling something out to her as she passed. You're misconstruing the argument, and I have to assume it's purposeful because I'm not being unclear.

Lick a stranger in public and I'll get in your face. Get too close to a stranger and make lewd comments at them, and I'll step in. These are not the behaviors we saw in the video, though. Do I think there should be less rude assholes? Sure, absolutely, but I also think there should be less oversensitive pricks, and both make things worse for the rest of the world. If I have to feel like I can't try to spark a conversation with a stranger or even try to flirt, because someone is going to treat me like I'm being abusive, that's a shitty world to live in. That video suggested the woman was 'harassed' 100 times, but that's misleading, because how many of them were 'Good Morning' or 'Have a nice evening'?

Anyway, I'm not arguing this point anymore, since it's the same shit I've said already and you're not actually countering it, you're arguing about some other shit that isn't what I said.

[Nepene]

If I have to feel like I can't try to spark a conversation with a stranger or even try to flirt, because someone is going to treat me like I'm being abusive, that's a shitty world to live in.

If someone says they feel abused and your response is to make them the problem that's also a pretty shitty world to live in for them. A lot of women have complained about this. A lot of women are being saturated with such comments, and because some percentage of them are abusive every comment is pretty scary for them- when you come up to them they don't know if you're going to say hi or lick their neck. You may not like it but that's their reality. I wouldn't be one to be overly pedantic with come ons or say that every come on or conversation is bad but the problem does deserve some major recognition. If women in some town are used to someone saying good morning to them leading to abuse 10% of the time then maybe saying good morning to them as they walk around isn't great.

As to why I was 'misconstruing' the argument, you jumped into another discussion where I was talking about something other than precisely what you want to talk about. I was giving an example of what has happened to a friend of mine to illustrate why fighting back goes poorly at times, not trying to be inside your head.