Harassment is sad.

[Deepbluediver]

Personally, I don't go around trying to white-knight for every woman in the city.

God I despise that phrase. I don't know when doing small decencies for women got turned into "white knighting," but I dearly wish that mindset would die in fire.

I do "small decencies" for anyone when it's appropriate- I'll hold a door for a man or a woman. But would you expect me to intervene if I saw a man catcalling at another man? Don't you think that would make a lot of straight men uncomfortable? What if I saw a woman catcalling at a man? Are we supposed to just ignore everyone around us in the street? Or would you prefer I instantly jump into any situation that looks like it MIGHT be making someone uncomfortably, regardless of how little I know about what's going on?

In the video, the woman claimed one guy followed her for 5 minutes, but she apparently never told him to back off and the cameraman never felt that she was in enough danger to stop filming.
I'm not sure what I would make of that if I saw it, but of the people you pass on the street, I'd say about 90% you see and hear for less than 10 seconds, and 99% for less than a minute. So if no one stopped to help her out, they probably just didn't realize what was happening. In fact, I don't see anyone else catcalling at her during those clips when it looks like she's got a male companion with her. Was it inappropriate? Sure. But what exactly do you expect Joe McRandom on the street to do about it?
I mostly keep to myself when I'm walking, without making comments or eye-contact with to many people. Kinda like the woman in that video was doing. But this also probably makes me less quick to notice if someone was truly being harassed. So apparently I'm supposed to be constantly on alert for people to help out, but never actually talk to anyone or watch them to much lest I make them uncomfortable.

Also, this 10 hours was cut down into 2 minutes. I'd be curious to see the entire video and how it correlates with what areas she was walking through and who did the catcalling.

[crayzz]

That is bizarrely defensive considering it doesn't relate in any way to what I wrote. Here, I'll repeat it: "I don't know when doing small decencies for women got turned into "white knighting," but I dearly wish that mindset would die in fire." You know what I object to? Derogatory terms for being somewhat nice to women; it's an idiotic mindset.

Don't you think that would make a lot of straight men uncomfortable?

I have to admit, I don't care, any more than I would care were people to get uncomfortable when you tell them to stop using "faggot" as insult.

Are we supposed to just ignore everyone around us in the street?

I seriously have no clue what you're on about. No one suggested or implied that we ignore everybody. It looks like you're either strawmanning, or setting up a false dichotomy between "cat calling" and "ignore everybody."

[RyukaTana]

I think there's definitely a place for the idea of "White Knighting", but it's one of those terms that gets used by assholes so much to describe innocuous stuff that are just decent things for a person to do, that I usually associate it with shitty people. Still, I didn't do so in blue's case here, since it made sense in context, and I generally agree with his point. I'm not going to deal with getting into shit with a stranger that might waste a bunch of my time, or even become violent, because of a rude outburst that didn't actually stop someone from going about their business.

[Deepbluediver]

That is bizarrely defensive considering it doesn't relate in any way to what I wrote. Here, I'll repeat it: "I don't know when doing small decencies for women got turned into "white knighting," but I dearly wish that mindset would die in fire." You know what I object to? Derogatory terms for being somewhat nice to women; it's an idiotic mindset.

Clearly I wasn't planning on fighting to the death for anyone's honor, but the original post I was responding to (by yomikoma) basically seemed to say that men are supposed to be coming to the defense of a woman, even before she appears to be in any physical danger. You can all it whatever you want, "white-knighting" was just my way of summing up those actions succinctly.

I consider coming to someone's aid if they are in distress to be basic human decency. Interfering when someone isn't in distress and hasn't asked you to (essentially just assuming that they are in distress and need help) is where it crosses the line IMO.

Don't you think that would make a lot of straight men uncomfortable?

I have to admit, I don't care, any more than I would care were people to get uncomfortable when you tell them to stop using "faggot" as insult.

So it's a "small decency" to tell a creep to knock off hitting on women but you don't care if it happens to men? Seems kind of sexist, unless I've missed what you where trying to tell me.
But that was my other point. If a woman OR man looks like they are visibly afraid or in physical danger, I will attempt to help them. If they just look annoyed and aren't making any effort to defend themselves, then I'll assume they don't care enough for me to intervene either.

I seriously have no clue what you're on about. No one suggested or implied that we ignore everybody. It looks like you're either strawmanning, or setting up a false dichotomy between "cat calling" and "ignore everybody."

Basically, I see 3 possible outcomes.
1) Every instance of cat-calling demands my intervention.
2) Nothing is ever any of my business.
3) Some things but not others cross the line and I should intervene.

Most people will probably pick #3 as the most sensible, but then how are we to judge where any single instance falls? What are the exact circumstances where your standard of a "small decency" is applicable?

[crayzz]

Clearly I wasn't planning on fighting to the death for anyone's honor, but the original post I was responding to (by yomikoma) basically seemed to say that men are supposed to be coming to the defense of a woman, even before she appears to be in any physical danger.

That's a unusually strict standard. I generally tell people they're being assholes well before they reach apparent imminence of criminal violence.

So it's a "small decency" to tell a creep to knock off hitting on women but you don't care if it happens to men? Seems kind of sexist, unless I've missed what you where trying to tell me.

Ah, k, I misread you. I thought you meant the act of telling men to knock it off would make straight men uncomfortable. I don't care if, in telling men to knock it off, they become uncomfortable.

[Deepbluediver]

That's a unusually strict standard. I generally tell people they're being assholes well before they reach apparent imminence of criminal violence.

As would I, but a single comment to someone as they walk past doesn't usually raise alarms to me.
Not that I see it all that often- that's one reason why I said I was curious to see the whole video and what parts of the city she was walking through.

I thought you meant the act of telling men to knock it off would make straight men uncomfortable. I don't care if, in telling men to knock it off, they become uncomfortable.

Agreed.

My question still stands though- if you saw a woman saying stuff like in that video to a guy in the street or a man hitting on another man would you intervene to tell them to stop?

[yomikoma]

I wasn't trying to say that everyone was responsible for everything, just that 1% assholes with 0% negative consequences means a lot of people have crappy experiences. If for every asshole there were two people saying "dude, not cool" we might have less assholes, or at least harassees don't feel like everyone else approves of asshole behavior. Doesn't mean that everyone has to respond to every event, and doesn't imply any particular standard.

[crayzz]

Ay, I wanted to make that point, too. Out of all the harassment, there was nothing. There isn't even a chance of someone telling them to knock it off. There's almost 0 cultural push against that sort of shitty behaviour. That's not a good thing, and it's worth criticizing, but it absolutely does not require us to be white knight vigilantes.

[Deepbluediver]

Alright, fair enough, but not every woman apparently thinks it's a big deal.
http://nypost.com/2014/08/18/enough-san ... lattering/

If someone was being bothered and indicated they didn't like it then I would consider stepping in. But if someone simply ignores it, like the woman in the video did, then I would assume they didn't care.

[crayzz]

Alright, fair enough, but not every woman apparently thinks it's a big deal.

I don't think deliberately seeking such attention out is comparable to being harassed when you're minding your own business. One might as well use the same argument to justify punching strangers in the face. Hey, someone likes a good bar fight now and again. Just not that guy on the ground bleeding.

It really is a dumb argument. Just because some people enjoy it, doesn't mean everyone will, and it certainly doesn't justify going on indiscriminately.

If someone was being bothered and indicated they didn't like it then I would consider stepping in.

I don't understand your obsession with in situ engagement. It's perfectly possible to tell men they're being obnoxious afterwards. It doesn't even take much:

1: "Hey, sexy, come back here!"

*woman walks away*

2: "Christ you're an idiot."

*2 walks on as he was before*

No laying down your life as a knight of the crown. No vigilantism. Going about your day, calling idiots idiots. I understand if you're uncomfortable with engaging people as such, but to go on as though such is a big deal is bizarre.