892: The C-Word

[sundriedrainbow]

It has taken me something along the lines of 600 comics to be het up enough to want to register a username and comment on this board, though I do read it fairly regularly, but golly gee this did it.

CONSENT IS NOT ASSUMED UNTIL SOMEONE SAYS NO. JESUS FUCK MAX, THIS IS BASIC.

Max seems to think that because she's "bottoming" she's exempt from the concept of consent, and HELL TO THE NO. I no longer believe that Max's driving concept is to give others pleasure. I believe that she prioritizes her own pleasure over others' desires. The difference between her and the, for lack of a better word, stereotypical rapist is that others' pleasure is important to her, its just very clearly not something she cares about until her needs/wants are met.

Max should not be praised for meeting the extremely low bar that is "when someone asks you to delete a naked picture of them, you did". It is appalling that she thought it appropriate to take the picture in the first place, ESPECIALLY since she doesn't have anything like history with Jamie. The argument "I see you in the shower all the time" does not supersede lack of consent, but it is at least somewhat understandable. Max has no grounds to be doing this shit to Jamie, and IIRC we even have onscreen footage of Jamie explicitly saying he does not want to have sex with her.

edit: urgh I read The Rant again and if Max fundamentally respected Jamie and Ellen she would not have taken pictures of them naked in their bedroom without them knowing!!!!

[Horizon]

Keep in mind that Max is someone who views sex as a universally, unambiguously good thing. To the point that anyone who doesn't want sex is clearly broken in a fundamental way, in fact.

No, Max, sex is not a fundamental human need. It's a very common biological imperative, but 1) some people don't have it and 2) even if you do, it won't kill you if you don't fulfill it. There's a reason sexual frustration isn't considered a serious condition on par with dehydration or malnutrition- the latter two will kill you if left unchecked. The first will simply make you feel crappy for a while until it goes away.

[Nepene]

max near her first appearance injured another's genitals, has continued to do that to people, and has supported the homosexual rape of a partner and guilted him into not talking about it. She's not at all different from a rapist. She's a fairly standard rapist. Valuing the pleasure of your partner doesn't exclude that. Lots of rapists like to tell their victims how good they'll feel.

Her standards on consent include rape being acceptable and sexual assault to the point of injury being fine. Unlike our beloved author and his unreasonable camper max is the unreasonable one.

[Fake robot]

Just reading the comic I thought the C-word was "cool".

[Killjoy]

Keep in mind that Max is someone who views sex as a universally, unambiguously good thing. To the point that anyone who doesn't want sex is clearly broken in a fundamental way, in fact.

No, Max, sex is not a fundamental human need. It's a very common biological imperative, but 1) some people don't have it and 2) even if you do, it won't kill you if you don't fulfill it. There's a reason sexual frustration isn't considered a serious condition on par with dehydration or malnutrition- the latter two will kill you if left unchecked. The first will simply make you feel crappy for a while until it goes away.

Max and Lilly are more alike than either would admit -- in their deep reluctance to respect and accept the differences in other peoples thought processes, emotional priorities, and needs. Both have a "it's for your own good" attitude that's repugnant on ethical and other grounds.

This is even more ironic and hypocritical on Max's part, as her lifestyle is one that faces a lot of disrespect and judgement and bigotry from others who would tell her how to live her life, who would dismiss her thoughts, feelings, and priorities on the matter.

edit: urgh I read The Rant again and if Max fundamentally respected Jamie and Ellen she would not have taken pictures of them naked in their bedroom without them knowing!!!!

Exactly.

[Horizon]

Keep in mind that Max is someone who views sex as a universally, unambiguously good thing. To the point that anyone who doesn't want sex is clearly broken in a fundamental way, in fact.

No, Max, sex is not a fundamental human need. It's a very common biological imperative, but 1) some people don't have it and 2) even if you do, it won't kill you if you don't fulfill it. There's a reason sexual frustration isn't considered a serious condition on par with dehydration or malnutrition- the latter two will kill you if left unchecked. The first will simply make you feel crappy for a while until it goes away.

Max and Lilly are more alike than either would admit -- in their deep reluctance to respect and accept the differences in other peoples thought processes, emotional priorities, and needs. Both have a "it's for your own good" attitude that's repugnant on ethical and other grounds.

This is even more ironic and hypocritical on Max's part, as her lifestyle is one that faces a lot of disrespect and judgement and bigotry from others who would tell her how to live her life, who would dismiss her thoughts, feelings, and priorities on the matter.

The similarities between Max and Lily's worldviews have been remarked upon many a time, both in the forum and in the rant. Personally, I find both of them fundamentally repugnant, although Max's is a little better because 1) it allows her to admit she's wrong and (nominally)change her behavior, and 2) it's slightly less dehumanizing than Lily's is.

I think a cornerstone of their worldviews is a sort of biological essentialism, the notion that human behavior doesn't overmuch deviate from some standardized template. As in... there's an essential "way humans are", and anything that doesn't fit that is clearly a very rare exception, assuming it exists at all. Lily assumes every human wants control, and yet is little more than a slave to their own biological imperatives. Max assumes every human needs sex, and that the context of said sex is merely little fiddly details. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure a majority of us can agree that both viewpoints are inaccurate and also dangerous- if every human needs sex and consent is just a minor detail, then rape suddenly is a lot less terrible, isn't it?(No it isn't) If every human is little more than a bundle of biological imperatives and quirks, then it's for their own benefit that you control and manipulate them, and therefore okay.(Again, no it isn't)

Lily and Max are the Grimdark and Noblebright sides of the biological essentialism coin, and I personally think that coin should be discontinued, as should the penny, and possibly anything smaller than a quarter.

[Killjoy]

Keep in mind that Max is someone who views sex as a universally, unambiguously good thing. To the point that anyone who doesn't want sex is clearly broken in a fundamental way, in fact.

No, Max, sex is not a fundamental human need. It's a very common biological imperative, but 1) some people don't have it and 2) even if you do, it won't kill you if you don't fulfill it. There's a reason sexual frustration isn't considered a serious condition on par with dehydration or malnutrition- the latter two will kill you if left unchecked. The first will simply make you feel crappy for a while until it goes away.

Max and Lilly are more alike than either would admit -- in their deep reluctance to respect and accept the differences in other peoples thought processes, emotional priorities, and needs. Both have a "it's for your own good" attitude that's repugnant on ethical and other grounds.

This is even more ironic and hypocritical on Max's part, as her lifestyle is one that faces a lot of disrespect and judgement and bigotry from others who would tell her how to live her life, who would dismiss her thoughts, feelings, and priorities on the matter.

The similarities between Max and Lily's worldviews have been remarked upon many a time, both in the forum and in the rant. Personally, I find both of them fundamentally repugnant, although Max's is a little better because 1) it allows her to admit she's wrong and (nominally)change her behavior, and 2) it's slightly less dehumanizing than Lily's is.

I think a cornerstone of their worldviews is a sort of biological essentialism, the notion that human behavior doesn't overmuch deviate from some standardized template. As in... there's an essential "way humans are", and anything that doesn't fit that is clearly a very rare exception, assuming it exists at all. Lily assumes every human wants control, and yet is little more than a slave to their own biological imperatives. Max assumes every human needs sex, and that the context of said sex is merely little fiddly details. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure a majority of us can agree that both viewpoints are inaccurate and also dangerous- if every human needs sex and consent is just a minor detail, then rape suddenly is a lot less terrible, isn't it?(No it isn't) If every human is little more than a bundle of biological imperatives and quirks, then it's for their own benefit that you control and manipulate them, and therefore okay.(Again, no it isn't)

Lily and Max are the Grimdark and Noblebright sides of the biological essentialism coin, and I personally think that coin should be discontinued, as should the penny, and possibly anything smaller than a quarter.

(I'd rather keep the penny, I don't like the idea of most everything being rounded up 1 to 4 cents...)

As someone who fundamentally does not work "how humans work" in several ways, many of these blanket biological or other essentialisms about human beings end up as (deliberate or not) attempts to invalidate me as a human being.

It's one thing to say "human beings are mostly _____" or "human beings are usually ____", but when someone starts saying "human beings are _____", and their response to someone saying "I'm not ____" is to say "that's impossible, because you're a human being and all human beings are ______"... there's a very small set of things that they'd better be talking about (as in made of organic matter, endoskeletal, mammalian, etc).

[MitchellTF]

*nods* I think summing them up as the Grimdark and Noblebright really hits the nail on the head. The difference between Max and Lily...is that Max genuinely, honestly wants to HELP people, and make them better. All people.

She...just literally does not understand that certain things are wrong. But, at the same time, she lacks malice, and she's not...unwilling to change. Well, she doesn't change her CORE stuff...

But, yeah. She's...not as ulitarianist as she thinks. She first thinks of her own pleasure, then "Will this HARM anyone"...and oftentimes, her idea of if this will 'harm' anyone, doesn't. At the same time, she's willing to cause some harm, if she thinks it would get things better. And, her willingness to do this stuff...yeah. It makes some of her earlier 'jokes' a good bit less funny.


The difference, I think...is that Max doesn't really seem to understand what she's doing. Not in the denial "It's not my fault" kinda way...but in the "Wait-what" kinda way. If she's ever, EVER called out...instead of doubling down, like Lily does...she instantly concedes. She respects consent, but doesn't realize that you never assume consent even for those things she considers "lesser". She respects consent quite a bit...NORMALLY, at least with sex PROPER...it's when it gets to some...other, crazier details near the edges. Like..."I understand you want to celebrate friend's happiness. But that doesn't mean taking a picture of them sleeping!"

I'm...still more willing to forgive Max then Lily, even though she can cause far more harm then Lily, though. I think...because it's made legitimately clear that Max is, well, insane. Her morality is so...sideways, that it becomes almost impossible to judge her by human norms. She really has a Blue and Orange morality. Not to mention she's manic depressive. And, it's clear she cares about people, and doesn't want to hurt them. (Despite my thing earlier)...she just doesn't REALIZE how much she's hurting. This...actually shows a flaw in utilitarianism views. Without having a set of standards, you're having to spend all your time calculating, and it fails to handle the whole "Do unto others." thing at times.

That said...this is the kind of thing, where I would end up having a LOOONG talk with her. As in "We might not be able to be friends anymore." A very, very careful talk...

Maybe it's because Max is so...happy? Whereas Lily is so...angry? Maybe I'm just rationalizing?

[Killjoy]

On an entirely different note, what the heck will Jamie turn out to be internet-famous for?

[luislsacc]

On an entirely different note, what the heck will Jamie turn out to be internet-famous for?

The brutal beating and murder of Richard Knight, for which he got away scot free because of the racist police of WhereverLeftoverSoupIS.