The Shit-Stirring Thread.

[snowyowl]

It's a decision you're entitled to make, and a lot of people would stick to it. But not everyone would actually not have sex after making that decision. A little education about what they're missing can't hurt.

[Merle]

You make sex sound like any other night on the town.

Hypothetically, if this conversation took place one century ago-how much of the advice that people would give would significantly change?

Given that latex condoms were not available at that time, and medicine as a whole hadn't progressed as far as it has, and chemical birth control methods were neither prevalent nor widely available? Quite a bit. As the situation changes, the proper behaviors change, too - though I'd certainly still want kids to be educated about basic safety, biology and the relevant dangers, as well as (to the extent possible) relevant techniques.

You can teach someone the basics of oral sex without actually engaging in it, for example. Basic ideas like "not everyone orgasms the first time they have sex, don't get too hung up about it, lots of foreplay is always a good idea", that sort of thing, are pretty time-independent.

I view sex as a worthwhile activity, one with its own attendant risks and attractions - and like any other worthwhile activity, it's well worth doing well.

[BarnabyG]

I postulate a world-view of religion that might be worth a thought:

I have been a part of a church which my father attended before I was born. I have always found the church to be a very supportive, spiritual place. I have found encouragement, support, and love from the members. I was never abused, I never felt threatened, and I never felt uncomfortable.

That being said, I do not believe in God. I want to. I REALLY want to. I remember that feeling of believing, and I have very close friends who clearly take so much comfort and support from their belief in God. BUT I just can't bring myself to suspend my disbelief, no matter what comfort I see.

The Existence of God:
As stated above, I don't believe that God exists. I just can't. BUT I do believe that God is powerful.

Huh?

Ok, so my church is an amazing place. Every week, hundreds of people come together to worship in the name of God. They donate money, time, energy, and goods to the church, and to projects run by the church. We sponsor refugees, and assist them with accommodation, education, support, training, and friendship. We provide a weekly dinner to the homeless in Adelaide, where the food and labour is donated by the members of the church. We raise thousands of dollars every year towards charity, disaster relief funds, and my choir would make you melt.

Several years ago, a man in our church developed parkinsons disease. He was going downhill very quickly, but was still involved with the social life of the church. In his final year, he hosted a Quiz Night, which raised several thousand dollars. I saw him on that stage, struggling to speak, and yet so joyful and what he and his colleagues had achieved.

So why do I believe in the power of God, if I don't believe God exists?

These people come together in God's name. They donate their time and efforts in God's name. They follow a code they feel is handed down by God himself, and they do good things.

They do these good, wonderful things because of their belief in God. If they did not believe in God, they would not come together to do these things. There simply would not be a community doing these things.

So I see that these good works are all done BECAUSE of my church's common belief in God.

Regardless of whether God exists, these good things are done in his name, and therefore I see that the belief in God is powerful, regardless of whether he exists.

Because of this, I find myself comforted by my community's belief, because I SEE it making the world a better place, all because of a common belief.


**Disclaimer: I know that the church, as a whole, has also been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history, but MY experience of MY church has been overwhelmingly good.

[snowyowl]

That's beautiful.

[RyukaTana]

I don't see it as remotely beautiful. I see that as disgusting, simply because of this:

They do these good, wonderful things because of their belief in God. If they did not believe in God, they would not come together to do these things. There simply would not be a community doing these things.

That tells me one thing... FUCK those people.

Can't be a good person without a belief in God? Fuck them then, fuck everything about them. Not to mention the two-faced assholes who will do 'good' in the name of God one day, and use it as an excuse to talk down to a person the next.

How many of them will teach their children that there's a Hell? If any of them do, those people are fucking terrible. How many of them insist their children go to church or teach them about other religions so they can make their own choice? Any that don't, assholes, the lot of them.

How many of them actually consider the value of their charity? How many would take the time to pick someone up and make their lives actually better, rather than just tossing an hour or two of their time, and some old shit they didn't want anyway and call it charity?

Beauty and wonder... Pathetic is all I see...

[snowyowl]

Can't be a good person without a belief in God? Fuck them then, fuck everything about them.

Do their reasons really matter so much? Doing good for the wrong reasons is vastly better than doing evil. I don't think the hospital gives worse medical care if the money came from the church than they would if it came from atheists.

Not to mention the two-faced assholes who will do 'good' in the name of God one day, and use it as an excuse to talk down to a person the next.

Because only Christians can be self-righteous pricks who think they're better than everyone else. Have you been to Tumblr lately?

How many of them actually consider the value of their charity? How many would take the time to pick someone up and make their lives actually better, rather than just tossing an hour or two of their time, and some old shit they didn't want anyway and call it charity?

Many charities lack oversight and are riddled with bureaucracy or even corruption. Throwing a wad of cash at a generic "charity" is much worse than taking the time to find projects that will make a real difference or people who directly need your help. This far, I agree with you. But again, this problem applies equally to everyone, and donating to disaster relief is better than nothing. What have you done for charity lately, Ryu?

Beauty and wonder... Pathetic is all I see...

I see a knee-jerk assumption that anything remotely connected with religion is bad and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible.

We atheists and agnostics are supposed to be champions of reason and logic, and that means taking the time to think things over instead of judging based on stereotypes. Yes, religion has been responsible for a lot of terrible things. But that doesn't mean that just because religion was responsible for something, it was automatically terrible.

[crayzz]

Can't be a good person without a belief in God? Fuck them then, fuck everything about them.

Do their reasons really matter so much?

Aye, I found that strange as well. We have a factor that leads to a good outcome; without that factor, the good outcome would not happen. Its foolish to complain about another hypothetical scenario where that factor doesn't exist.

We atheists and agnostics are supposed to be champions of reason and logic, and that means taking the time to think things over instead of judging based on stereotypes.

Heh, I've spent far too much time observing atheist communities to think any such thing is true.

[RyukaTana]

Because only Christians can be self-righteous pricks who think they're better than everyone else. Have you been to Tumblr lately?

This isn't an argument. This has nothing to do with what I said. 'These people aren't the only ones who are terrible' is not a justification for being terrible, nor are you aiming you condemnation at some group that I have championed. I like Tumblr for its artistic and entertainment side, but fuck 'social justice' bullshit that litters that site.

The shittiest part is how you ignore all the things I said where I specifically called out things that are essentially the basics of Christianity...

We atheists and agnostics are supposed to be champions of reason and logic, and that means taking the time to think things over instead of judging based on stereotypes. Yes, religion has been responsible for a lot of terrible things. But that doesn't mean that just because religion was responsible for something, it was automatically terrible.

Also, stop implying I am what you are or that I must be a specific group based on my condemnation... I am not an atheist. I'm more of a deist, and I think all organizations that feel they know some grand truth are stupid assholes, atheists absolutely included. Definitely anyone who 'champions reason and logic' or people who think humans and our scientific understanding means we know jack shit about the greater meaning of everything.

I cited clear reasons why I think religion is terrible, and I'll add that any Christian who simply believes in God and the teachings of Christ (not the whole Bible, just the basic message of Jesus) is absolutely cool in my book. The moment you add the Commandments, the specific actions of God suggested in the Bible, and/or the concept of Hell, then pretty much fuck you. Also, if you only do good out of guilt or fear of punishment, then yeah, fuck you.

Do their reasons really matter so much? Doing good for the wrong reasons is vastly better than doing evil. I don't think the hospital gives worse medical care if the money came from the church than they would if it came from atheists.

Yes their fucking reasons matter. Intention is important. It speaks very clearly to a person, and how a community can grow. I hate how our fucking society uses what is essentially a statistics based mindset to decide whether something is good or not.

Thousands of people's lives are saved! HUZZAH! Doesn't matter what their standard of living might be, lives were saved! We did a good thing!

Homeless guy eats for one single day! YAY! We did a great thing by making his life slightly more prolonged, but also not actually any better!

What charity have I done? It depends on what you call charity. If charity is just helping people, I have three very important people in my life who I spend constant effort to make their lives better.

If you mean, do I give something of myself to make a life slightly better but ultimately do nothing to really help them? No. I determined a long time ago that not only is the proverbial 'giving a man a fish', not particularly helpful, it's harmful.

Do I 'teach a man to fish'? Absolutely. I do everything I can to help raise my little one, to try to teach her every lesson I've learned so that she may have the tools at 13 that I never had.

Do I try to make 'the world a better place'? No... I stopped that. I don't believe it's possible, and I believe the best thing for the world now is to wait for humanity to kill itself off the face of it. In the meantime, I'll just try to make life better for myself and my loved ones (and potential future loved ones), and literally no one else.

For a long time I felt I needed to try to help and enlighten people, all people. I've since dropped that, now I'm just arguing to satisfy the need that I built after all that time. I don't actually think my argument is going to convince anyone, I think most people are just assholes who refuse to stop being assholes. So this just satisfies my need to vent about it.

[snowyowl]

This isn't an argument. This has nothing to do with what I said. 'These people aren't the only ones who are terrible' is not a justification for being terrible, nor are you aiming you condemnation at some group that I have championed. I like Tumblr for its artistic and entertainment side, but fuck 'social justice' bullshit that litters that site.

I was saying that there's little-to-no positive correlation between being religious and being a bad person. People will find excuses for their behaviour, regardless. And I presented an example of a group which is less religious than average and which finds different excuses to justify their behaviour. Religion is used as a justification for evil, but that doesn't mean it's actually the cause of it, and removing religion won't get rid of self-righteous pricks.

The shittiest part is how you ignore all the things I said where I specifically called out things that are essentially the basics of Christianity...

I ignored the bits I agree with! Why would I argue with those?
It's terrible to teach that you can't be a good person without belief in God. There are Christians who don't hold this belief, including the current Pope, but it's a dangerous thing to teach on a number of levels.
Teaching children about Hell is a kind of ethical hijacking. ("But how can this behaviour be bad if it doesn't hurt anyone?" "Uh, uh... IT MAKES THEM THEM BURN IN THE LAVA PITS!") It discourages critical thought and gives vastly skewed priorities. Actually, you want to know a belief that's worse for children? The Rapture. How many eight-year-olds have had parents who were late to get back home one evening, and thought that their parents had been raptured and the unworthy had been left behind?

Also, stop implying I am what you are or that I must be a specific group based on my condemnation...

I'm sorry, that was a mistake.

I hate how our fucking society uses what is essentially a statistics based mindset to decide whether something is good or not.

I disagree. I don't like it when people try to reduce charity to stories and warm fuzzy feelings when they could be using hard data. Feelings are far too easy to manipulate.

I don't care whether poor little Caillou will be forever grateful for my help. Give me the hard facts. How many thousands of people has your charity been helping? How does this compare to other charities? Where will my donation do the most good? Don't tell me about this one homeless guy you fed once, the plural of anecdote is not data. If it makes you feel nice, by all means give money to buskers, but don't forget to do some actual work at some point.

What charity have I done?

Sorry, I shouldn't have asked that. It's frankly none of my business. I was angry when I typed that.

[RyukaTana]

Alright snowy, you're last post is much more reasonable, so let's swap from argument to debate here. You sound like you might actually be willing to hear what someone else has to say once the anger is gone. So let me admit to my general sense of anger and apologize, because if you are intelligent enough to hear me, then you aren't someone I'm angry at, even if we disagree.

This doesn't change my disdain for humanity as a whole, and if you feel that makes me corrupt or evil or negative as a whole, that's your choice. I'll say that I don't start from a place of disdain, I came to the conclusion of misanthropy after trying hard to help people. I believe it's the logical conclusion when you see how people treat intelligent ideas and people that differ from their narrow worldview. However, I'm not trying to convince you of that, I want a better world as much as the next person. If you're an intelligent person (by my standard, and you seem to be, at least moreso than most), I want you to be happy, even if my ultimate (practical) desire is to just see humanity fade away.

So, putting that aside:

I was saying that there's little-to-no positive correlation between being religious and being a bad person. People will find excuses for their behaviour, regardless. And I presented an example of a group which is less religious than average and which finds different excuses to justify their behaviour. Religion is used as a justification for evil, but that doesn't mean it's actually the cause of it, and removing religion won't get rid of self-righteous pricks.

This is definitely not what I'm arguing. However, the Bible teaches some pretty terrible lessons, not to mention the general concept that goodness should be done for God's sake, and not for one's own. It's a self-conflicting jumble of garbage messages with a few gems, and blind faith makes for bad people.

Religion may not make bad people inherently, but it does pave the way for a shit ton of people like the Inquisition, the Crusades, and men like Fred Phelps (the former head of the Westboro Baptist Church), and even if some were evil and used religion to excuse it, some were undoubtedly driven by religion to do evil acts. Either way, good or evil, the acts perpetuated by such people are driven by a detachment from reality, which means said individuals are unlikely to follow an ethical course of actions if they can be convinced their morality conflicts.

Thus, the problem with why one does good acts is that if they do so for some detached 'moral' reasons, they are more likely to do things like throw money at charities without considering what the value is, teach their children negative values (and force out good and new ideas).

Why I called you out on not noting the other parts of my argument is because it is all or nothing. If a person donates to charity because of their religion, but also teaches their child about Hell and the Rapture, then they are doing a dubious amount of good (dependent on what their charity even really does) and a definite evil, in the name of their religion. Seeing as how many (I'd say most) religious parents definitely keep their children from exploring other religions and teach them the faith-based morality systems that come with whatever religion, I'd consider the concept generally negative.

So yes, the why matters.

As far as the statistics thing goes, I am not talking about 'warm fuzzies' here. I am saying, that helping someone live, who will continue to suffer until they die, is not charity. To me, it's downright evil. Lots of homeless people exist who will never function, or at least not without dramatic psychological help and possibly medication. Feeding them is not a good thing, it's prolonging their suffering.

Some people would ask, rhetorically: 'What would you do? Kill them?' Not immediately, no. I'd offer them psychological and economical help. I would 'teach them to fish' as it were. Feeding them is false hope, it's essentially a sort of torture, where you keep them going just one more day. For some, that may be all they need, but for plenty, it's not enough.

If said individuals could not be helped, actually helped, I'd put them down (humanely, so they don't have to suffer the awfulness that is starvation). To me, that would be a life that was saved. One that someone took time to understand, analyze, help, and ultimately grant a final mercy to.

Save 1,000 lives and leave them suffering, that does not make for a good person. Statistics are meaningless bullshit that can be spun to look pretty much however anyone wants. Fuck data, I want results, I want situational awareness.