MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

[crayzz]

Decision making is effected by development, but that doesn't remotely change the fact that there are plenty of 30-year-olds far less capable of making decisions than my 13-year-old niece (and I'm well aware of the fact that she isn't remotely capable of living an adult life yet). If you're testing for decision making skills, and said test is valuable on any level, it should be just as valuable for a child. Why would you not test their decision making skills?

Are you aware that you haven't addressed a single thing I've said? I did not state that all adults are capable; I did not state that such a test was not, in any way, valuable; I did not state that the kids shouldn't be tested, or that I had a reason for them to not be tested.

I imagine you'd be less annoyed if you actually read what I wrote.

Do you honestly not understand how libido effects you outside of your sex life, though?

Specific to matters of bodily autonomy? No. Outside that, most things that I can think of would apply to sexual attraction to others, which no longer exists (all women; no lesbians). I'm not seeing any reason to institute a policy against libido's in kids/people-who-have-yet-to-pass-the-autonomy-test.

[RyukaTana]

Are you aware that you haven't addressed a single thing I've said? I did not state that all adults are capable; I did not state that such a test was not, in any way, valuable; I did not state that the kids shouldn't be tested, or that I had a reason for them to not be tested.

I imagine you'd be less annoyed if you actually read what I wrote.

My quote:

Decision making is effected by development, but that doesn't remotely change the fact that there are plenty of 30-year-olds far less capable of making decisions than my 13-year-old niece (and I'm well aware of the fact that she isn't remotely capable of living an adult life yet). If you're testing for decision making skills, and said test is valuable on any level, it should be just as valuable for a child. Why would you not test their decision making skills?

Wherein I address one of your points...

Do you honestly not understand how libido effects you outside of your sex life, though?

Specific to matters of bodily autonomy? No.

And you question my reading comprehension...

[Tem]

Do you honestly not understand how libido effects you outside of your sex life, though?

I certainly don't. What do you even mean by that?

In a world where pregnancy is not possible, I don't see any problems that could be caused by letting teenagers decide for themselves whether they want to masturbate or not. Maybe Lily believes it makes you blind if you do it without the help of a robot, and the sex robots may be dangerous if not handled carefully, but otherwise ...

The plague affected not only all humans, but all mammals (not including marsupials and monotremes). The virus is still present in all humans, but is now considered benign. All children are grown in artificial wombs, and it's considered normal for the uterus to be nonfunctional. Human Y chromosomes and the genetic structures of dogs, cats, cattle, etc were originally saved in the hopes that they could someday be restored, but the A.I.s in the First Singularity War considered those to be of strategic value, and they were destroyed.

Wow, that's bad. Forget dogs and cats and other pets, there are no squirrels anymore? No deer? No mice? And all the birds that prey mostly on mice are extinct, too?
Okay, the people who live in that world are probably used to it, but still, I'd have problems to "feel at home" there.

[crayzz]

If you're testing for decision making skills, and said test is valuable on any level, it should be just as valuable for a child.

I'll admit I was splitting hairs on the meaning of "valuable," since not doing so and accepting this at face value means you're openly denying reality.

Source:

"The researchers found that when processing emotions, adults have greater activity in their frontal lobes than do teenagers. Adults also have lower activity in their amygdala than teenagers. In fact, as teenagers age into adulthood, the overall focus of brain activity seems to shift from the amygdala to the frontal lobes.

The frontal lobes of the brain have been implicated in behavioral inhibition, the ability to control emotions and impulses. The frontal lobes are also thought to be the place where decisions about right and wrong, as well as cause-effect relationships are processed. In contrast, the amygdala is part of the limbic system of the brain and is involved in instinctive “gut” reactions, including “fight or flight” responses. Lower activity in the frontal lobe could lead to poor control over behavior and emotions, while an overactive amygdala may be associated with high levels of emotional arousal and reactionary decision-making.

The results from the McLean study suggest that while adults can to use rational decision making processes when facing emotional decisions, adolescent brains are simply not yet equipped to think through things in the same way. "

Source:

"Scientists have identified a specific region of the brain called the amygdala which is responsible for instinctual reactions including fear and aggressive behavior. This region develops early. However, the frontal cortex, the area of the brain that controls reasoning and helps us think before we act, develops later. This part of the brain is still changing and maturing well into adulthood.

Other specific changes in the brain during adolescence include a rapid increase in the connections between the brain cells and pruning (refinement) of brain pathways. Nerve cells develop myelin, an insulating layer which helps cells communicate. All these changes are essential for the development of coordinated thought, action, and behavior."

In general, the brain of a teenager is much more susceptible to emotion, stress, etc. This is a matter of physical development. Unless a test somehow corrects for physical differences between a teenage brain and an adult brain that lead to differences in behaviour in emotional situations, it is simply invalid to assume that the test results accurately represents a teenagers ability to function while emotional. Unless the test accurately simulates emotional stress (creating psychologically similar conditions within clinical conditions can be nigh impossible; without clinical conditions the test lacks reliabililty), the results are less valuable (i.e. do not well represent a teenagers ability to function under emotions). I explained all this (albeit much more concisely, and with less redundancy) in my initial post.

[RyukaTana]

Do you honestly not understand how libido effects you outside of your sex life, though?

I certainly don't. What do you even mean by that?

Seriously? I don't even know what to do with that...

As to your point, crayzz, those factors should be judged whether or not you're dealing with an adult. If not, I wouldn't consider the test particularly valuable anyway.

[JustinReilly]

Do you honestly not understand how libido effects you outside of your sex life, though?

I certainly don't. What do you even mean by that?

In a world where pregnancy is not possible, I don't see any problems that could be caused by letting teenagers decide for themselves whether they want to masturbate or not. Maybe Lily believes it makes you blind if you do it without the help of a robot, and the sex robots may be dangerous if not handled carefully, but otherwise ...

Anyone here read The Left Hand of Darkness? You should read The Left Hand of Darkness. It's basically this, an examination of the results of a human society without gender or libido. Le Guin (the author) predicted that society as a whole would stagnate and ossify (while being much more peaceful and non-violent) without the sex drive to motivate them.

Wow, that's bad. Forget dogs and cats and other pets, there are no squirrels anymore? No deer? No mice? And all the birds that prey mostly on mice are extinct, too?
Okay, the people who live in that world are probably used to it, but still, I'd have problems to "feel at home" there.

But think, you'd have a whole world full of koalas and wombats and platypuses!

[Tem]

Oh, right, I thought the platypuses were dead, too. Still, it's lacking variety ... on the other hand, evolution may provide some interesting new species. As I said, for those who grew up with it, it's probably normal.

No, I didn't read "The Left Hand of Darkness", and I'm not sure I consider it believable. I mean, I'm sure my sex drive didn't ever motivate me to do something creative or innovative. May be different for other people, but I can't really understand the idea.
I could see how a world without children would stagnate, but without sex drive? I don't see it. A lack of romantic interest in other people would, I think, be more harmful to the arts (we would lose a whole genre of poetry) than a lack of sex drive. And science wouldn't be affected by either.
Okay, if I remember that correctly, Freud believed that all human creativity is somewhat fueled by suppressed sex drive, or whatever, but I don't believe it. If that were the case, asexual people would differ more from sexual people than they actually do. Also, toddlers wouldn't be motivated to do anything, which is obviously not the case.

However, even IF it were true that one's whole life is motivated by sex drive (you could argue that children have some kind of immature sex drive and even asexuals have some), then it would be outright cruel, to take that away from people who are not considered "mature" enough.

And as was already explained, in a world without pregnancy, where no one is attracted to fellow human beings, there is no rational reason to do so. I mean, in real life, (almost?) all people who got a Darwin Award for dying while doing stupid things because of their sex drive are men, and Lily is probably aware of that.

Therefore, I really don't understand what the reason behind depriving people of their sex drive is. Apart from, maybe, intentional cruelty so that they feel forced to "grow up".

[Horizon]

1) When and where is your Utopia set?
Brief description of the cosmology of my Utopia: a Universe is made up of multiple Dimensions(meant in the sense of 'planes of existence') floating in a Lesser Void contained within a sort of bubble. That bubble is the boundaries of a Universe.
The Greater Void is an ethereal soup of emptiness scattershot with universes, and it's also where wizards draw their magic from. Becoming a wizard requires an existing wizard to take you on as an apprentice.
As such, time is a difficult thing to pin down.
2) What major events in the past helped shape this world?
The discovery of the Lesser Void, and later the Greater Void, in one of the universes. The process has never been repeated in any other universe, meaning that every wizard after the first(his discovery of the voids was after an apocalypse that left him the only living sophont in his universe) has to be brought into the Void by an already existing wizard.
After the first wizard(a grey-skinned, horned humanoid who was called only Vantas) managed to recruit enough wizards(enough that he needed a sort of government to keep them all in check), he established three governing bodies: the White Council, who dealt with making and editing civil law; the Black Council, who dealt with making and editing criminal law; and the Red Council, which dealt with enforcing said laws. The creation of the Councils also marked the start of the Magical Timekeeping System, which helped make time and temporal mechanics a less confusing mess. It included a standardized year(one of which is equivalent to 90 rotations of the planet Earth, by coincidence) and calendar, and the numbering system for the years started the moment the Councils started having any authority.
In the year 456, the first human wizard was inducted into the burgeoning wizard society. After his introduction, humans started becoming wizards with almost alarming frequency(they were still carefully picked for good moral character, because giving a sociopath magic powers didn't sound like a good idea to anyone). In the year 623, they became the most populous demographic.
3) What major technological advances have changed human capabilities?
Magic. It's incredibly complicated(the pure Void magics are often compared to programming in Assembly with a magnetized needle and a steady hand, if you don't have magic items to focus your power) in its pure form, and when filtered into a universe(creating Natural magic, which has been compared to a more modern programming language that only one computer runs) it becomes far less versatile, but also easier to use. Magic is often performed with the aid of magic items that function sort of like scripts(firing off a series of preprogrammed commands much faster than the mage could type them manually, and without mistakes), which can look like anything the mage wants it to. The most favored one is a staff, because you can take it anywhere without arousing suspicion, and when it's not any good for magic(antimagic fields exist, and what makes them magic items is delicate enough to foul with basic force manipulation), it's still a long, hard and heavy stick you can hit things with.
4) What major problems have been solved, and how?
Poverty is not something that exists in Wizard society, due to there being no currency or scarcity. If you are hungry, there's a spell that makes food. If you don't know it, someone will, and will be willing to cast it for you(and teach it to you so you don't have to ask in the future) so you don't starve. And yes, the 'no currency' thing is right. There is still some sort of commerce, but it's a more traditional barter system- I'll give you a staff that shoots lightning worthy of Zeus himself if you give me those goggles that let me see magic. Or, alternatively, I'll give you 400 manhours of labor, doing all your magical busywork(which is still a thing).
One problem that has cropped up, however, is that Wizards are often not responsible adults. They don't interact much with each other, aside from friends and acquiring new knowledge/items, and the primary way of amusing yourself among Wizards is going into one of the universes, and seeing how your people's history plays out there as compared to how you remember it. If a problem arises, whether or not you caused it, the default reaction is to portal back into the Void.
5) What aspects of human nature have been changed?
Wizards as a whole are not very competitive, since they don't interact with each other much. They also think it's a perfectly acceptable reaction to run from your problems, unless your problems are with the Red Council, because they can track you wherever you go, and will only be pissed when you make them chase you.
6) What ideas and virtues are you attempting to popularize?
The spirit of exploration. Learning to help not only yourself but others(someone has to recruit new wizards, and the White Council set the limit on the number of times a wizard can recruit at 3. Someone also had to teach you all those neat magic tricks, and you'll need to teach the new kids how to do those, too, because there are only so many students a teacher can handle before they become useless.).

[RyukaTana]

Okay, so, I had an idea on this one, and wanted to deviate from the norm of what it means to create a utopian society. It's not necessarily particularly original, but the concept as a utopia is rarely done, and reflects on my thoughts about utopian socities as a whole.

There's two approaches to this utopia, one which is more fantastic, and takes the road of interpreting the most common depiction of utopia, the one few people seem to think of when you describe a utopia. That is to say, something akin to Heaven, the Elysian Fields, or some other afterlife reward given to those who have lived good lives.

So, in this interpretation, the setting is the afterlife, wherein Earth (or the Material Plane) is a test of sorts. If you can manage to just be a decent person, an ethical one, not a charitable or religious or excessively selfless one, just avoiding all the worst aspects of human nature, then you can be allowed to participate (maybe there are varying degrees, limitations placed on people who have done notable wrong, but have made up for it or tried to change or truly had no ill-intent). This, essentially answers the second question, of what events shaped the world (albeit in a roundabout way).

So, this Heaven is like a dream-state. It can be a solitary experience, or link up with others who have reached this plane, and this can change at any time. Essentially, each individual can create worlds in which they can vividly experience anything they wish. They can agree to experience this with others (at the cost of limiting their control on the given world) or experience it alone. They can engage in sex, war, drugs, or just peaceful, happy lives. They can change experiences at any time, be anything they wish, and no one is ever actually hurt (unless another 'dreamer' consents out of some masochistic enjoyment). If they engage in violence, it is against figments of their own mind. If they are displeased with an experience, they can even wipe it from their memory.

Alternatively, the utopia could be a far future 'Matrix-esque' world, where robots have been given control, to help sustain humans while they engage in vivid virtual simulations. Solitary ones can just be a carefully induced dream state, while shared ones are like grand-scale MMOs (or smaller scale 'LAN' games with people who have become friends, and wish to share an experience without all the outside social input).

In either case, the 'virtues' of the world are freedom, happiness, choice, and experiences. The ability to explore whatever the mind desires, without bringing harm to others. It can easily create stories with conflict, and social interaction can still exist (with all the stimulation, even if the 'body' itself is not necessarily involved).

[snowyowl]

Alternatively, the utopia could be a far future 'Matrix-esque' world, where robots have been given control, to help sustain humans while they engage in vivid virtual simulations. Solitary ones can just be a carefully induced dream state, while shared ones are like grand-scale MMOs (or smaller scale 'LAN' games with people who have become friends, and wish to share an experience without all the outside social input).

In either case, the 'virtues' of the world are freedom, happiness, choice, and experiences. The ability to explore whatever the mind desires, without bringing harm to others. It can easily create stories with conflict, and social interaction can still exist (with all the stimulation, even if the 'body' itself is not necessarily involved).

I've had this idea, too. Like all good utopias it raises some questions.

In my idea, the robots eventually work out how to remove the brains from the equation, and entirely digitise human minds. These don't decay as organic brains would, and can be seamlessly sped up or slowed down depending on the availability of computing power, without affecting subjective experience. They also use a lot less resources, since they don't need to be kept at a specific temperature or fed specific chemicals. Naturally, this is universally considered a good thing.

So, the only resource post-humanity uses or needs is computing power. But the robots also use computing power for other things - managing factories and keeping the lights on, solving physics and mathematics problems, and creating art for the simulated humans to enjoy. So, as with all computer programs, they need to make sure the human minds are optimised to use as little excessive time and memory as possible. Now, the virtual brains have never been perfect simulations of the real ones - note, they don't age or get sick. So, if the robots' ethics are consistent, they can make optimisations that affect the subjective experience of the humans. But how much, exactly, can they afford to discard?

I'll cut to the chase and suggest that the robots need to find out what it is they need to keep about humanity, and what is simply distraction or obstacle that should be removed. In short, they need to find the meaning of life. And then build a computer that fulfils that meaning.