MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Serious discussions on politics, religion, and the like.
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snowyowl
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by snowyowl »

Razmoudah wrote:Well, I can tell you the biggest problem you're having. Most successful utopia scenarios are reliant on some sort of extremely major event that isn't caused by human action but affects nearly the entirety of humanity, forcing nearly everyone to work together to face and confront it. There are other scenario types that result in a single unified planetary government, but that tends to be the one that is least prone to it being unstable.
"isn't caused by human action"? You used the example of World War III in Star Trek - how is that not caused by human action?

Anyway, jocaypa's idea does have such an event. Several, in fact.

Utopias don't require the near-extinction of humanity. I actually can't think of any examples where it does happen. The original Utopia, the Shire in Lord of the Rings, and City of Reality are just utopian island nations that have little contact with the (darker) outside world. Post-singularity utopias like The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect have dramatic changes to the world, but humanity isn't so much "forced to work together or perish" as "completely relieved of any responsibility by their new benevolent ruler". Same argument goes for the Bible, if you take Judgement Day as your end-of-the-world scenario and Heaven as the following utopia.

Frankly, I'd be skeptical of any utopia that's built on people working together to defeat a specific problem. As soon as that problem is solved, the utopia's reason for existing is gone. But if it's never solved, and it's such a big problem that humanity is doomed unless they devote all their energy to it, then you've not got much of a utopia there at all.
... in bed.
jocaypa
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by jocaypa »

First and foremost, i'd like to quote wikipedia on an utopia's meaning
A utopia /juːˈtoʊpiə/ is a community or society possessing highly desirable or near perfect qualities.
Which means that we're not going with the etymology that makes an "utopic society" impossible.

Now then, on to Razmoudah's comment; quoted as:
Most utopia scenarios have some type of major event that nearly wipes out humanity, and it's the survivors who build the utopia, usually in reaction to what caused the apocalyptic scenario but sometimes in reaction to some new outside influence.
Which spawned the following counter-argument from snowyowl:
Frankly, I'd be skeptical of any utopia that's built on people working together to defeat a specific problem. As soon as that problem is solved, the utopia's reason for existing is gone. But if it's never solved, and it's such a big problem that humanity is doomed unless they devote all their energy to it, then you've not got much of a utopia there at all.
I must admit i'm leaning towards snowyowl's argument, if only because he/she quoted City of Reality and City of Reality rocks. 8-)
But in all seriousness, i don't see how survivors of a war they didn't fought could, with way less resources than the actual ones, way less technology, way less resources and way less chance of survival, build a society possessing near perfect qualities any time soon. On the other hand, an utopia which encloses itself from the rest of the world a-la Atlantis sounds easier on the mind for me, mainly because they were already developed/satisfied enough to consider breaking off from the rest of the world, but also because being a non-regulated society, they don't have the risk of getting corrupted from the outside.

Finally, as an counter-counter point, the closer you get to a "perfect" society, the less there is to change. Yet change is the most basic of human abilities, not only being our main resource in staying alive, but also being our first and foremost drive out of all the internal impulses a human experiences. This makes a true "near-perfect" society unlikely (in my eyes) for real humans in the current universe [where "universe" means space (Oregon, the US, Earth, the Solar System, it doesn't matters how large, just that it is space) where a set of rules and conditions (human necessities, mental models, nation-wide laws, scientific constants, it doesn't matters how large, just that they are conditions) applies.]
All this leaves me with only two questions. What would i prefer to go against when creating an utopia? If it's not the current universe, i can't imagine it; if it's not a true near-perfect society, there's no utopia, which leaves me with the sole option of not letting them be real humans. Now, for a question i won't get to answer yet... What part of their humanity should i take away in order to make things work?
Last edited by jocaypa on Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Razmoudah
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by Razmoudah »

snowyowl wrote:
Razmoudah wrote:Well, I can tell you the biggest problem you're having. Most successful utopia scenarios are reliant on some sort of extremely major event that isn't caused by human action but affects nearly the entirety of humanity, forcing nearly everyone to work together to face and confront it. There are other scenario types that result in a single unified planetary government, but that tends to be the one that is least prone to it being unstable.
"isn't caused by human action"? You used the example of World War III in Star Trek - how is that not caused by human action?
Okay, I should've been more specific in stating that even in Star Trek a utopia was created out of the ashes of a Post-Apocalyptic world, but that the event was caused by humans. I was referencing that event in the History of Star Trek more because there are few non-Trekkies who know of it, and I've even come across a couple of Trekkies who would go on and on about how perfect the Star Trek setting was and weren't aware of its tragic past (Never mind the fact that it is referenced in Encounter at Far Point, which is the pilot episode of The Next Generation, and thus is still part of Gene Rodenberry's original Star Trek Universe. Also, my appologies for misspelling his name, I don't get the time to properly hunt down references until the weekend due to my work schedule.).

Also, I did mention two other examples of settings with events that were caused by humans that initiated the unification, or near-unification, of humanity.


And now another pair of quotes for further replies:
jocaypa wrote:First and foremost, i'd like to quote wikipedia on an utopia's meaning
A utopia /juːˈtoʊpiə/ is a community or society possessing highly desirable or near perfect qualities.
Which means that we're not going with the etymology that makes an "utopic society" impossible.
jocaypa wrote:Finally, as an counter-counter point, the closer you get to a "perfect" society, the less there is to change. Yet change is the most basic of human abilities, not only being our main resource in staying alive, but also being our first and foremost drive out of all the internal impulses a human experiences. This makes a true "near-perfect" society unlikely (in my eyes) for real humans in the current universe [where "universe" means space (Oregon, the US, Earth, the Solar System, it doesn't matters how large, just that it is space) where a set of rules and conditions (human necessities, mental models, nation-wide laws, scientific constants, it doesn't matters how large, just that they are conditions) applies.]
All this only leaves me one question. What would i prefer to go against when creating an utopia? If it's not the current universe, i can't imagine it; if it's not a true near-perfect society, there's no utopia, which leaves me with the sole option of not letting them be real humans. Now, for a question i haven't been to answer... What part of their humanity should i take away in order to make things work?
The biggest flaw with any type of utopia is that different people have different definitions of "highly desirable or near perfect qualities" for a society, of course that's also part of what makes reading about different peoples utopias so interesting. Another thing that, as jocaypa pointed out, most utopias forget to take into account is that change is a fundamental part of how the universe works and an integral part of what makes humans human. Any "true" utopia has to take into account how to manage manage change, especially human iniated change, and how both individuals and society as a whole react to said change. I used the quotes there because it is questionable whether or not a society that is desgined around a capacity for change actually qualifies as a true utopia, as that allowance for change can imply that it doesn't have near perfect qualities, but it could still have highly desirable ones.

I am kinda sad that my argument is losing out since I don't have familiarity with the same works of fiction (no clue what City of Reality is), but it's nearly impossible for one person to be able to reliably know any and all possible references to something. Besides, that's not the entire point. My primary point is that within the past of nearly every utopia scenario is some sort of major event that caused everyone to come together for a common cause. Even if it wasn't necessarily a near-extinction level event it still tends to happen. The only utopia that I am familiar with whose past doesn't include such an event is the initial setting of Here There Be Dragons, which technically had a government less super-science futuristic world, but that was because people stopped relying on and needing governments due to a super-powered near-AI (it didn't have self-awareness, which after the in setting's AI War was the main reason people still trusted Mother) that was excessively capable of handling most of that and people just gradually giving it more and more authority until governements simply ceased to exist. However, that book is the first in a series where the utopia collapsed because a hand full of power hungry individuals managed to take control of the super-powered near-AI (thankfully Mothers abilities were limited enough that they couldn't use it to directly enforce their will on others), of course it also brings to point the fact that not everyone has the same idea as to what makes a utopia. Strangely enough though, the setting had a few abilities that almost make Star Trek seem under-developed, yet they lacked any type of long-range FTL drive or communication capacity (they had FTL communication, with insane bandwidth capabilities, within the Sol System, and by paring a teleporter system with it they had FTL travel within the Sol System, but nothing beyond it).

Now, before you go quoating J.R.R. Tolkien at me again just let me state that I am not familiar with the history of The Shire, so I have no clue how their utopic society formed. Also, as I am a fan of The Lord of The Rings (as well as There And Back Again, for those who know the reference) I'm not entirely sure that The Shire technically qualifies as a true utopia, a near-utopia sure, but not a true utopia as to my knowledge most define a true utopia as a place where none would ever suffer from hunger, and if you payed attention I do believe that there are references to some who aren't as well off and do suffer from hunger in The Shire. In many respects the Elven nation (sorry, I can't remember it's name right off hand) would've probably been closer to a utopia, until the events that led to the end of the Third Age started.
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doctor100
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by doctor100 »

How we would know that the elves live in a utopia is beyond me, after all, thier population is in a steady decline. If I recall, they face possible extinction.

We can certainly say that the Dwarves aren't in any utopia, they have all kinds of nasties to contend with.

I think the only one (other than the shire) who get to have "highly desirable or nearly perfect qualities" would be Smaug before he got interrupted by that other Utopian dweller the hobbit.

And, y'know possibly the Elven after-life.

Wait-one other Tolkien Utopian present's itself-(not the wizards surely, they all suffer and struggle), but rather that truly magical being, Thom Bombillido. [sp].
Particularly considerign that so much of morality is emotional based 'not to hurt people' 'don't be mean' 'build community' 'listen' 'be humble', a logical answer doesn't present itself, the problems exist in an emotional framework.
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doctor100
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by doctor100 »

Dude, city-of-reality is a awesome comic I need to pick up again. Unusual update schedule, updates several pages once a month or so. Story-line is a utopia that crashes.
Particularly considerign that so much of morality is emotional based 'not to hurt people' 'don't be mean' 'build community' 'listen' 'be humble', a logical answer doesn't present itself, the problems exist in an emotional framework.
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MysticWav
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by MysticWav »

Dude, city-of-reality is a awesome comic I need to pick up again. Unusual update schedule, updates several pages once a month or so. Story-line is a utopia that crashes.
Wow, really weird to get someone else's take. I would not have characterized it like that at all. I would have characterized it as more of an illustration of how little of conventional "realism" approaches actually make sense, and what an actually realistic approach would look more like. If anything I'd say the Utopia is functioning quite well in an imperfect world.
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snowyowl
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by snowyowl »

MysticWav wrote:If anything I'd say the Utopia is functioning quite well in an imperfect world.
Yeah, that's how I'd describe it. A utopia-in-a-bubble that occasionally involves itself in the affairs of less-utopian places.
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MugaSofer
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by MugaSofer »

Tailsteak wrote: What world do you create?
Eh, what the heck. Here's one, I might dash off a couple more at some point.
When and where is your Utopia set?
2040's, planet Earth. I'm assuming the protagonists/PCs/whatever will visit multiple nations.
What major events in the past helped shape this world?
The first self-improving AI was developed in 2020. It's creator - who remains anonymous to this day - became the most powerful human on Earth more or less instantaneously.

After rapidly growing bored of messing with everyone, he decided to go live in a palace on the Moon while his army of invulnerable nanotech stormtroopers enforce martial law. (And prevent anyone else from developing AI or leaving near-Earth orbit.)
What major technological advances have changed human capabilities?
Firstly, people use Star-Trek-like comm badges and tricorders (they aren't called that, but there are a variety of specialized devices that all boil down to "smartphone + some other thing".) Cyborgs are common enough that you probably won't double-take on seeing one in the street unless they resemble someone you know.

There are various hyper-advanced "magic" artifacts scattered across the globe, mostly in the center of settlements that were built to study and exploit them.

Those that seem relatively innocuous - a hotel with an uncountable number of rooms, a painting that no-one can remember, a cupcake that never runs out, etc - tend to be the most powerful. Ironically, those that seem utterly mind-blowing (like the portal gate or the lamp that grants wishes) are actually fairly useless for the most part.

Also, there are the aforementioned invulnerable nanotech stormtroopers. They can see through walls, and move faster than the human eye can track (faster than the speed of sound, in fact - their armour is designed to cancel out the resulting shockwave.) They punish lawbreakers.

Finally, some of the magic let us look very closely for intelligent life Out There. They were all killed by their own self-improving AI.
What major problems have been solved, and how?
War is impossible - national boundaries remain exactly as they were in 2010 (for some reason - it's definitely 2010, some boundaries that had altered were changed back.) The primary exception is the USA - individual states are regarded as separate countries, although they retain close administrative ties. Current politics consist of simmering cold war covered by a thin veneer of world government.

The stormtroopers will enforce any laws that can be put into sufficiently clear terms for them by the officially-recognized governing body - theft is still possible, but murder is tricky (and extremely dangerous) if you aren't intimately familiar with the laws of wherever you are. Immigration, smuggling, and open warfare are completely impossible.

Poverty is gone - most nations use something roughly equivalent to a universal stipend for convenience, although they call it by different names. Anyone, anywhere who possesses food or medicine will have it forcibly confiscated if they are the nearest to someone dying of starvation or curable disease - regardless of bylaws. Africa is currently going through something of a Renaissance, complete with city-states and rich patrons of the arts.
What aspects of human nature have been changed?
Most of the world lives in an effective post-scarcity situation; previously low-status service industries, such as garbage collection, waiting tables etc. are now extremely well-paid.

Accidents are rarer. Most notably, falling will summon a stormtrooper to catch you, and there are some exciting ways to travel if you're brave. Most places have stringent safety laws, as well (although not regarding railings.)

After you see the first drunk person lose their hand to a Stormtrooper trying to start a fight with someone, you are much less inclined either to hit people yourself or to vote to legalize recreational drugs of any kind. Many countries flat-out banned all recreational drugs, including cigarettes and alcohol.

Most nations still maintain a small police force, and being convicted of a crime is, itself, a crime that the stormtroopers will punish. There are many, many spies.
What ideas and virtues are you attempting to popularize?
Technology can be a lot more powerful than it is now, and it will be, very soon.

If we actually bothered, we could solve huge amounts of suffering right now by preventing people dying horribly just because they're poor.

Lateral thinking is, in an odd way, the essence of science.
Nepene
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by Nepene »

When and where is your Utopia set?
2) What major events in the past helped shape this world?
3) What major technological advances have changed human capabilities?
4) What major problems have been solved, and how?
5) What aspects of human nature have been changed?
6) What ideas and virtues are you attempting to popularize?

2025, detroit.

Peak oil hit in 2020. Crime hit a new high in 2022. Martial law was declared in 2023, along with a mass seizure of guns. 2024, a massive organ running ring is exposed, taking organs out to some unknown source- as they discover, much later, being used by aliens to build bodies to invade society. 2025. In a massive coordinated attack (as later exposed, they were armed and coordinated by said aliens who had subverted their upper ranks) the gangs of Detroit launch a coordinated attack on the military and police forces in the city, slaying most of them. The city was doing bad, and those at the top were desperate for any solution. The answer came in a new set of technologies- cheap AIs that could cheaply run security, drive safely, monitor everything. Cheap DNA alteration technology that could change the nature of humans. Mass use of 3d printing. With it they quickly created a large cybernetic policeforce. And there we begin...

The world would be about a fast progression of science and technology bettering the world- criminals fixed with implants and gene mods, violent people fixed with a simple injection, death reduced in a host of ways by tiny drone flys that watched all and saw all, all leveraged primarily through the protagonist's hard work and efforts beating the many forces that opposed them. Technology changes would include implants, basic AIs, gene mods, and cheap drone manufacturing. With that new life would blossom from the city, all as the larger existential threat became worse and worse. Politics and crime are unchanged- they are as corrupt and broken as ever. This would be a change from the bottom up.

The main aspect of humans changed would be impulsiveness and IQ, with one being reduced, the other boosted. Cyborgs would have boosted speed, accuracy, strength, durability. Mental stability would be sharply reduced by the cyborg implants, leading to more crazy people.

Through this the benefits of science and technology would be popularized. Accidents are common, people have problems, there's a lot of bad stuff in the world. But it's getting better, it's getting fixed, and just in time, because very bad events are on the horizon.

Every episode would be centered around a new major technology that if widely adopted could make the world better.

E.g. mass riots build up in the city as conditions get worse in hot summer, a desalination plant and a huge greenhouse open.

Increasingly violent conflicts between gang members who sell drugs and the weakened police leave it close to death, despite the cybernetic augemntations. The city legalizes drugs and manages to dump huge amounts of a water soluble drug in the water, captures the high criminals.

After weaponized weed makes everyone high the clogged up roads and accidents become a worse issue. AI cars are forced on the masses, sharply driving down deaths.

The city becomes close to bankrupcy because of a new disease which threatens aging union members, sharply driving up medical costs. They buy a lot of medical bots which sharply reduce costs by automatically diagnosing people, synthesizing pirated generic drugs, and dispensing them, helping them swerve away from bankrupcy. You could have a lot of storylines on this plotline.

The police murder a number of civilians while in an adrenaline fueled chase, riots start across the city. Handgun laws are openly defied. Mandatory video cameras are installed on all police and incidents of corruption drop through the floor.

The aliens reveal their presence more openly, arming police haters with advanced plasma rifles, slaughtering and burning several police stations simultaneously. There is a mix of a desire to control weapons more sharply and to arm civilians against the increasing crime. There are long and annoying debates on gun control where many statistics are quoted. The solution? AI guns, which consult a database before firing. A group of police and civilians work together to stop a new series of attacks.
MaggiedesHiboux
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Re: MAKE YOUR OWN UTOPIA

Post by MaggiedesHiboux »

Alright, let's give this a shot. I'm honestly not shooting for "plausible" here, but then most Utopias aren't. The thing is, though-most of the time, when I'm reading a Utopic story, I get the impression that the author is saying "If we only followed my socio-political beliefs, we could totally have this awesome future world." This is NOT the case for this.

1) When and where is your Utopia set?
The future, I'm honestly not sure how far. They use a different calendar by then.
2) What major events in the past helped shape this world?
Some time in the late twenty-first or early-to-mid-twenty-second century, a scientist created a WMD that, unlike nuclear weapons, created virtually no collateral damage outside its immediate sphere of influence, and left no lingering effects after it had done its terrible work. The scientist was secretly a radical anarchist, and leveled his weapon at several major world governments. Amidst the panic, most government functions were secretly taken over by the First AI, who wasn't actually publicly known to exist until later. It instituted most of the major changes that persist to the "present" day. (It has since stepped down, but maintains a significant degree of influence). The economic system is basically like Florenovia's, because I thought that was actually totally awesome, (note: I do not endorse other aspects of Florenovia, such as lack of men). When women hit puberty, a birth control implant is installed. Tampering with this is a serious offense. Hysterectomies are also common.
A much different approach is taken towards "who can have kids" than on Florenovia, though. When a person decides they want a kid, they sign up on a waiting list. They specify who is going to be contributing the DNA, and who is going to be raising the offspring (the two do not have to be the same, although there is usually at least some overlap, and EVERYONE involved has to consent), and the genetic donors are screened for problem DNA (genetic diseases can be treated, but it's a huge hassle) and the guardians are screened for parental fitness, and assuming you're given the green light, you go on the list. It is possible to change who is in what position (one donor may decide they no longer want genetic offspring, or a guardian may develop psychological issues that would interfere with being a parent) but if you want to add someone, they have to go through all relevant checks. The guardianship checks are also repeated when you get to the front of the queue. Do to medical stuff, you can have up to three genetic parents (two to provide basic DNA, one to provide mitochondrial DNA) but there is no hard limit on the number of legal guardians. There is a soft limit-all guardians must demonstrate ability and willingness to exist in long-term close contact without major friction. Guardians do not have to have a specific relationship to each other. It is perfectly acceptable for, say, two sisters to decide to raise a child together (though they couldn't both be genetic donors) or a married couple to have a biological child and add their best friend as another legal parent. People in romantic relationships are more likely to have a child together-but that doesn't preclude more than two parents either. I thought Florenovia's approach was...reasonably okay, but just because a woman is making millions of microcreds per second designing spaceships or whatever doesn't mean she'd be a good mom.
3) What major technological advances have changed human capabilities?
Computers and transportation are more advanced, obviously. AIs exist but are not common. There are three of them with human-level intelligence. The first one's creator committed suicide shortly after finishing it (he wasn't upset at what he had done-he had been suicidal for a long time beforehand, and working on his greatest creation was the only thing that kept him going). The second's programmer died in an accident (conspiracy theorists are all over this) and no one knows where the third came from. All three have measurable psychological differences from humanity, but are equally dissimilar to each other. Major improvements in medical technology. People don't die of old age. Diseases still exist, but are mostly easily curable, and the ones that aren't have treatments that will let you survive them until your improved immune system kicks their asses. Dimensional folding exists, but is unstable and generally the domain of experimental science.
4) What major problems have been solved, and how?
Basically (if implausibly) human society was wiped clean-tabula rasa, if you will-by a major attack on world governments. An AI who had no cultural indoctrination rebuilt civilization from the ground up, removing those aspects xe found detrimental. Non-governmental issues such as racism, sexism, and homophobia were removed through slow, subtle Pavlovian conditioning. Religion still exists, and is in fact possibly stronger than in the early twenty-first century, but has no role in politics. Big Brother is watching you, but xe has no interest in your personal life or anything else you do that doesn't hurt anyone else, for that matter.
5) What aspects of human nature have been changed?
That's a hard question. What, of the things we consider normal, are cultural, and what are human nature? Best answer: less privacy expectations, bigotry all but wiped out.
6) What ideas and virtues are you attempting to popularize?
Tolerance, first and foremost. Even if you don't personally like what someone else is doing, you keep it to yourself and treat them with the basic respect due another human being.
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